Blew up a gun Thursday... now tell me WHY?

[H110]

Glad you found the culprit and glad you are O.K. you are extremely lucky or blessed and maybe both, Geeeees.

110

[atr]

I'm glad you are OK...
my thoughts about dropping powder from a measure,,,,and I use an old Lyman 55...
I notice that some times, depending on the powder, a portion of the charge will stick in the drop tube, and then that portion gets added to the next charge.....I don't know if this is what happend to you but it has happened to me several times. I caught it because I visually check all loads with a flash light....
atr

[HangFireW8]

EDIT: Anyone reading this far shoud re-check the first post, the Original Poster found 2400 in another cartridge loaded in WC867 quantities.

sounds like a old .318 bbl

I'm pretty sure the Portuguese were never afflicted with these.

.325 proj in a 8mm ?

First post said Bore on this gun slugs to .324".

old brass ? old brass thats been reformed from old 30-06 brass ? mag primer ? next time use reg primer new brass made for 8mm mauser an a .323 proj if a modern bbl wc867 fill to top press proj in if that was a 98 it should have stayed together

The action actually did its job. It didn't shatter and it didn't send the bolt through the shooter's cheek.

HF

[beagle]

This is far fetched but I was loading .41 Mags one time and had trouble adjusting the powder measure. I kept opening and opening the adjustment screw and I was still getting light loads.

After 4-5 had been loaded, I got a "whump".......a whole scale pan full complete with spider and a bunch of web.

In your case, it could have been leftovers from a previous loading. Now, I check the drop tube on my measure every time./beagle

[Bwana]

I have burned around $1000.00 worth of "surplus" powders over the years. Don't blame the powders for the operators error.
I would also comment on the locking lug setback. Is it possible that this setback ocurred over a period of time during which loads exceeded the tensile strength of the locking lug seat area? Just because it was "discovered" after the blowup doesn't necessarily mean it happened then.
I am not convinced this was a SEE event.

Gosh, here is my surprised face. Read the second sentence. Oh, also read the last sentence.

[Char-Gar]

Well, so much for all the SEE theories. Just a human error that could have cost him his eyesight or a part of his face. There is a lesson here.

[mooman76]

First off I've been following this post from the start. I reserved my comments because there were many more here with allot more experience than me so the best I could offer was a guess. Really glad you weren't hurt. Also glad you stood up to let us know what mistake happened. A mistake like this could have happened to anyone here and we can chalk it up as a reminder that what we do can be dangerous and we always need to be checking and rechecking what we do. We've all made mistakes, I know I have but fortunately I haven't made one bad enough without catching it that it could have ended this bad and I hope I never do. Hoping none of us do isn't realistic but I do hope none of us do again.

[flounderman]

I blew a commercial 98 up years ago. 4320 powder in a 25 souper. 6.5 bullet got mixed in. rifle was freebored so the bolt closed. receiver ring held, bolt held. bridge gone, extractor gone, receiver cracked thru the thumb notch, magazine swelled, stock broke, floor plate, follower gone, chamber swelled, cross hairs broken, bolt release gone. the ejector slot let the case head blow down it. I don't see where the case head let go on the 8mm. the weak spot on a rifle with an ejector slot in the bolt face, is the slot. the case is not supported there and when something goes wrong, it takes out the weak spots.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
I give great credence to your advice because of your experience is vastly greater than mine. However, it will never stop me from asking "WHY?" Accepting the advice to use "appropriate powders" doesn't increase my field of knowledge. I have been following the thread hoping someone would explain just why a full case of a slow burning power like 867 would cause the OP's experience. I still want to know WHY and HOW and under what circumstances it is a bad idea and when there is room for experimentation.

Jim

I appreciate that and I'm sure you're aware I am many times asking the why and the how also. However, before jonks revelation, we must sometimes take somethings at face value.

The why we shouldn't use certain powders in certain loads or at certain load levels is well answered by the many SEEs causing partial and complete damage to firearms and injury to the shooter and/or bystanders. This why is as well understood (or at least it should be) as the why we don't use over loads of certain powders just because there is still room in the case.

The how it happens is also now well understood. The use of too slow burning powder for the cartridge/bullet combination is dangerous and obviously can have catastrophic results. How an SEE occurs and the condition present for the how are well understiood. Most of the conditions were present as per jonk's original description of the incident. Thus we already know the why and the how of SEEs. To use a powder for which there is no data available without fully comprehending the potential danger, especially if the danger is a possible SEE, is asking for problems.

There are many, many different combinations cartridge/powder/bullet and what is potentially dangerous in one instance can very well be perfectly safe in another. It takes experience to use slow burning powders where no data exists and one must use judgement. Just because you've got a jug of some powder doesn't mean it can be safely used in a certain cartridge. Even those with limited experience can get away with using fast burning, easily ignitable powders with cast bullets in any cartridge. You can "correlate that powders burning rate to other powders where we have data and get a low end starting load based on that comparison. You just have to start low and work up and stop when the velocity and pressure signs say to. With slow burning, particularly the very slow burning powders that are hard to ignite is a totally different story.

The problem being is that SEE is a cause of several factors which are not in "data tables". Just knowing that SEE is possible with such should be warning enough. It is for me anyways. I we already know the how and the why then further testing/experimentation with another rifle would seem inappropriate unless one has some serious pressure testing equipment and is willing to risk it. I do and am not willing to risk it BTW. But, as I told DrB, he or anyone else is certainly free to do as they wish. It would be against my advise is all.

Now, considering jonk's revelation that the load was either all 2400 or was a good part 2400 then we obviously do not have an SEE but a classic overload. The end result of extreme pressure with both SEE and the overload is/was the same. Unfortunate in either case for the fine old rifle and most fortunate for jonk in that he was not seriously injured. None the less, given what jonk has found out about wcc867 I would not advise it's use in such cases, especially with a jacketed bullet in a long throated milsurp rifle.

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

I like the little grin you put on the original post Jonk, and glad you still can. You can buy scientific sieves off ebay that might help you separate the 2400 from the 867. I separated a couple powders I'd accidentally mixed once. Bigger difference in grain size than what you're dealing with though. I don't know why, but sometimes there's some fierce competition for the sieves. So much for all the SEE theory, with cast, I'll believe it only to be theory until someone shows me different, and that goes for the primer dislodging the bullet theory too. Sure, that happens, but how much pressure does it take to get a cast bullet moving again.

[DrB]

4000 fps out of an 8mm without leading, and a one hole group!!! Quick, say it ain't so before someone has a heart attack.

Joking aside, thanks for sharing your mishap and going to the trouble to methodically run down the evidence. Many wouldn't be so diligent, others wouldn't publish it for all to see. It's a valuable reminder, and a real service. It took a lot of character.

[felix]

".....how much pressure does it take to get a cast bullet moving again......"? Not much, if I have all day and night while getting a POOF upon some exit as a result! A bunch, if I have only a few milliseconds while getting a K-BOOM upon some unknown exit as a result. Your choice. SEE's are UNPREDICTABLE! It's all dependent upon the RATE OF pressure gain. ... felix

[jonk]

Thanks to all those who have commented and especially those who have commended me for having posted this on open forum. A little humble pie is nothing considering how grateful I am that someone at DWM in the early 1900s was on the ball and did his job very well and that my guardian angel was looking after me. If this thread gets even one person to start double checking things, the humble pie is worth the slightly sour taste.

[303Guy]

Blew up a gun ... UPDATED with possible solution

Thanks for that update, jonk.

So does that mean the original powder is then safe to use as was being intended?

Two things come come from, firstly we do need to be careful what powders we use and how, secondly, there is a very real danger of doing something wrong which could end up being catastrophic. Thanks for the wake up call, jonk. I think is was important for us to learn of your experience! None of us are exempt from that kind of error.

I try not to keep powders of different grade that look the same. Then I discover I have W748 and Lil'Gun and they look identical! That's a potential blow-up and I know it! I also have what's left of my AR2208 which looks identical to my AR2209 - which is why I got the W748 - to replace the AR2208. I got to get rid of that 2208 soon.

P.S. That make the event not a SEE but a PEE - Primary Explosion Event!

[SciFiJim]

303guy, Thanks for your quote of the OP. When I subscribe to a thread, I get instant emails when someone posts and just read the new posts. The emails don't detail when a post have been edited and I hadn't read the update in the original post.

For everyone, if you go back and edit a previous post with pertinent information, please post later in the thread that that post has been updated so that everyone knows that you have done so.

[SquirrelHollow]

Thanks to all those who have commented and especially those who have commended me for having posted this on open forum. A little humble pie is nothing considering how grateful I am that someone at DWM in the early 1900s was on the ball and did his job very well and that my guardian angel was looking after me. If this thread gets even one person to start double checking things, the humble pie is worth the slightly sour taste.

Thanks for the update, Jonk.

When I read your update, it made me sick to know that I was right.

Last year, I watched a Ruger Hawkeye grenade in my brother's hands (as mentioned before). After sending some powder samples and ammunition exemplars to Hodgdon, they determined that the same thing had happened -- a magnum powder had contaminated the rifle powder. (But, in that case, it didn't happen on our end.)

I'm glad you're okay.

Take it easy, and be careful over the next few months. I know my brother had some reservations about pulling the trigger on a rifle for a while, even when he absolutely knew it was safe. (Even if he won't admit it, it was traumatizing.)

[madsenshooter]

Felix I understand, pressure-time curve, but until someone shows me a real cast bullet SEE, which I've not yet seen, the SEE thing with cast is only theory and discussion about it. I'm using some relatively small charges of 860 in some of my loads, but with a filler to decrease case capacity, and generally, but not always, with a kicker to speed up the burn rate. Put enough fire in the back end of it and it burns about 4350 speed, which it should as surplus 4350, first called 4350 Data, then 4831, was also originally a 20mm cannon powder, and these 800 something powders have to burn at a similar rate to get similar ballistics in said cannon fodder. Thing is these powders were meant to be ignited with a primer a lot bigger than any LRM primer.

[uscra112]

Well, Quickload says 47 grains and a 200 grain boolit is about, (wait for it) . . . . . 134,000 psi.

[SciFiJim]

Well, Quickload says 47 grains and a 200 grain boolit is about, (wait for it) . . . . . 134,000 psi.

The above is one heck of a testament to the rifle. It is a great wonder that it didn't "catastrophically accelerate in all directions".

Did Quickload give an estimation of the boolit's velocity?

[Larry Gibson]

".....how much pressure does it take to get a cast bullet moving again......"? Not much, if I have all day and night while getting a POOF upon some exit as a result! A bunch, if I have only a few milliseconds while getting a K-BOOM upon some unknown exit as a result. Your choice. SEE's are UNPREDICTABLE! It's all dependent upon the RATE OF pressure gain. ... felix

Felix is exactly correct, SEE's are unpredictable.

Larry Gibson