reloadable .32 rimfire brass

[kootne]

I am going to need cut the chamber in my "32 Short" sued Winchester barrel as in machining the Tenon, it is now not deep enough to chamber a ".32 Short" round, it now measures .59" and will be getting shallower when the barrel is head spaced properly in the Receiver.

My hope is that the others reading this thread have enough information to share so I can order one Finishing Chamber Reamer that could be used for the full set of these cartridge families, both RF and CF, in the future.
In addition to this Winchester barrel, I have a Barrel Blank that also will need the chamber cut.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

If you have the brass already and the bullet you will use, I would suggest assembling a few rounds without powder or primer and send them to your reamer grinder with instruction to have a minimum clearance chamber for that particular cartridge assembly. I have found with my rifle brass and bullet that the case mouth does not expand on firing and happily that mouth diameter is a snug finger press fit to the bullet heel. So nothing required for loading other than for de and recapping.
kootne

[uscra112]

@Kootne -

That's almost exactly how I am doing it, or would be if the mill were not in an unheated shed and the weather is cold enough to freeze bourbon solid. The Model 44 only needs a decent flat, the thread takes the thrust. The H&A and Favorite, (and my Model 12 Markman jobs), all need the hole dead nuts or a wee bit offset, as you say.

As far as chamber reaming goes, talk to Dave Manson. He will make you a "neck-and-throat" reamer for $50, which will do everything but cut the rim recess. That you can do on the lathe. Depth of the chamber is now entirely up to you.

(Deleted the taper pin idea - it doesn't work.)

[Chev. William]

The techniques suggested for locating the barrel retention socket for the screw tip will help me work out a set up to use my available tools. IF I can get setup time on my friends Mill, that would be the 'most accurate' way if I am lucky. As an Aside, he has Logan Vertical Mill serial Number 001, and it is still almost all manual drives and without Digital Readouts.

I am bidding on two Stevens Favorite Used (very) Barrel Retainer Screws at the moment with intent to check the two for thread pitch and then for fit in my 1915 action.
Uscra112 alerted me to the possibility that the thread pitch is none standard hence the bids.

IF one does fit properly I am thinking of converting it into a 'threaded bushing' to locate a Transfer punch body square to the barrel and receiver and with the barrel shimmed out about .005" tap a transfer punch to mark the barrel for the hole location. I will need to do this lightly as the Tenon to Socket fit is very close, a 'location fit'.
Positioning the barrel in a machinist vise for cutting the actual socket is a very good suggestion, but "indicating" in the position assumes precision measurement tools not presently "in hand". I am contemplating aligning the socket position using a 'needle point' chucked in the quill and good lighting with a magnifier to get everything lined up. This is not Optimum but it is possible and achievable at this time with both of our financial conditions. I am hoping the taper on the screw nose will be a 'common counter sink angle' to simplify my tooling needs further, but I still need to measure the nose angle of a coned screw tip.

On a separate area: I gather from my reading adn looking at drawings the Driving band 'lengths' of the bullets presently in 'play' are as follows:
"311090A" = about .100".
"299153" = about .125" to .130".
"311090S" = about .200".
These are all nominal 90 grain bullets.

What is the driving band length of the 105 grain one used for the .32 Extra Long (ExL) Cartridges, both RF and CF in later loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

What is the driving band length of the 80 grain one used in the .32 Extra Short (ExS) and Short (S) cartridges, both RF and CF loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

Just some of the questions that have occurred to me in trying to find all the dimensions of the various cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Using my converted cases the .314" sizer works great, but they are a litle thicker than the factory RP .32LC brass. Using the RP brass it works well when I use the crimp die too. I can seat the bullets by hand, then crimp them. But If I try, I can turn the bullets in the case after crimping, but they won't pull out. It works fine, but using a .311" sizer would allow the cases to be sized down to a .001" - .002" interference fit. In a repeater this would be prudent, in a single shot either way will work fine I think. FWIW, I still have a 1960s era box of gactory loaded Remington .32 LC ammo, using the hollow base bullet and long case. These measure .316" at the base and .3145" - .315" at the mouth.

[kootne]

Chev,
Maybe I'm not following the thought with the .005 shim but I think if you shim between the reciever and barrel it will put "offset" in the wrong direction. Tending to loosen instead of tighten in the final assembly.
If you are thinking about a needle point in the quill, I would suggest a "wiggler". Properly used they are quite accurate. If you turn up a threaded piece with a sharp point all machined in the same set-up and used magnification to align the wiggler point with your pointed screw (pointed end sticking out) I think you could achieve very good accuracy. Hope that makes sense, it is not my gift to make good word pictures.
kootne

[Chev. William]

Kootny,
Your observation is correct, and my thought was 'backwards' thank you for the note.

I was thinking of using the 'needle' point to adjust the table to quill alignment to center the 'prick point' left in the Barrel Tenon in preparation for cutting the socket for the screw tip in the Tenon.
If I understand your comments correctly you indicate I should buy and use a 'wriggler' to guide the positioning, is this correct?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

......... In a separate area: I gather from my reading adn looking at drawings the Driving band 'lengths' of the bullets presently in 'play' are as follows:
"311090A" = about .100".
"299153" = about .125" to .130".
"311090S" = about .200".
These are all nominal 90 grain bullets.

What is the driving band length of the 105 grain one used for the .32 Extra Long (ExL) Cartridges, both RF and CF in later loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

What is the driving band length of the 80 grain one used in the .32 Extra Short (ExS) and Short (S) cartridges, both RF and CF loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

Just some of the questions that have occurred to me in trying to find all the dimensions of the various cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William,
Based on the illustrations in the Ideal catalog........the 80 gr. bullet has the same engagement length as the 299153 and the 105 gr. has about a .15" engagement length. As far as I know there are no modern mold numbers for either mold.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Chev. William,
Based on the illustrations in the Ideal catalog........the 80 gr. bullet has the same engagement length as the 299153 and the 105 gr. has about a .15" engagement length. As far as I know there are no modern mold numbers for either mold.

w30wcf

w30wcf,
Thank you for that estimate, I will assume it is correct unless there is a actual measured bullet 'out there'.

All,
It appears that the 105gr Bullet (Ideal cataloged as 299154) with a Driving band length of .150" would be the 'controlling' one for the maximum .32 Extra Long Chamber length.
So, the .32 Extra Long (ExL) RF with the 105gr bullet would require about a 1.300" minimum chamber length and possibly even longer for 'safety'.
And, the .32 Extra Long (ExL) CF with the same 105gr bullet would require about a 1.400" minimum chamber length and possibly even longer for 'safety'.

As ndnchf measures his .32 ExL RF chamber as about 1.284", I surmise it is limited to using the 90gr (Ideal cataloged as 299153) bullet in a case of 1.150" nominal length, which is what ndnchf reports he is using.

Does anyone see any problems with these estimates?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
The case head / rim is part of the cartridge case length so .05" can be subtracted. In other words, if the .32 RF case (using CF brass) is 1.150" long that portion in the chamber is 1.10" + .15" driving band length = 1.25" from the chamber entrance.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

I have been thinking that chamber length is measured from the Breech face datum, have I been incorrect?
And in photos, and my own Barrel samples, the cartridge rim fits into a recess, 'Rebate', in the breech end of the barrel. I do know that modern firearms seem to be more prevalent with the extraction rim held in a recess of the Bolt face rather than in the barrel end; but all of our example Single Shot rifles seem to have it held in the Barrel end, with the Breech Block flat and against the Barrel end also.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Today I got two pieces of Good News:
First, my Gunsmith called me to come in with any and all 'bits and pieces' I had acquired since I dropped off the two 1894 Stevens Favorite actions to be reconditioned. So I gathered up all the Barrels I have at home for the Stevens and the small parts I had picked up through Ebay auctions, etc. and went to his shop.
He had both actions mostly assembled with some missing screws and the two springs for one of the actions.
I had the missing screw replacements in my collection but he will need to order the two replacement springs. As to the barrels, we picked out four for him to use in fitting up the various parts; my 'Keeper' Stevens .25 Stevens, a good Stevens .32 Long, and two Stevens .22 Long Rifle barrels. I brought back home the remaining barrels for later.
He will complete the assembly of the first action with .22 LR parts and the better of the two barrels for initial Functional Firing Testing, then change to the .25 Stevens extractor and Barrel to see if the 'wedge' tip firing pin will work with both cartridges. This Action has faint Color Case Hardening faintly visible with an overlay of 'Brown Patina' so probably will be left as received without refinishing. It will go nicely with my 'Keeper' .25 Stevens barrel as is.
The second action was too dinged up and 'rusted' to leave as found so he Powder Blasted' it to clean it up and give it a 'satin' finish for later final finishing. Again it will initially be set up as a .22 LR for Functional Firing Testing, then reassembled with .25 Stevens Extractor and Barrel for further Functional Firing Tests.
There are Two separate '.22 LR Breech Blocks, one for each action, to be tested.
He had me bring home the better of the two Butt Stocks I had left with him and held on to an OAK Butt Stock and a Butt plate to be fitted to it. The Refinish my Friends son did cam out very nice and the oak has nice straight and tight grain. It has an Oil Finish now with a medium translucent 'Walnut' flavor color so it will go with the original Walnut Fore ends.
Later, we will be converting two additional 'spare' Breech Blocks to Center Fire. This will provide each action with a set of both RF and CF to allow interchange among calibers.

Second, I was informed that my 'seeping' radiator may be replaced at no cost to me or my Insurance company as both the Company who replaced it originally and the Company who manufactured the Radiator have Limited Lifetime warranted on workmanship and Labor. I will find out for sure next week, I have been told. This will be a real savings to my limited pocketbook.

On other projects:
Joe Mueller handed me two trays of 'fire crud coated' micrometers, Vernier Calipers, and Dial Calipers to be cleaned up. I have six Trays of dies I am still working on getting cleaned up for him also.

I trimmed the two barrel Tenons I previously turned to fit my Stevens Favorite actions to very close to final Head Space Length this afternoon, the Lathe in my Friends Shop was not in use so I took advantage of the time.

Next is to measure them again at a standard temperature to see if any more trimming is needed before setting up to locate the retention screw socket on the Tenons.

I have some research to do as my Gunsmith mentioned that my 1.070" long by .346" diameter Chamber (Barrel marked "32 Long") may be for a Ballard Cartridge. I had not heard of that before. I had heard of a Ballard .32 Extra Long CF. The Barrel Slugs .298'/.304" so it is very tight for a .32 Long Cartridge.
Perhaps there is some smaller ones known.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Good News: "AmmoGuide Interactive" now has listings for the .32 rimfire Family, from Extra Short through Extra Long. Thank you all for helping me get the information needed together to submit for the listings.

Now we just need to get some 'modern' loads listed with them.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[tomsp8]

Chev, saw the listing in Ammoguide (I have a subscription. Great value by the way for anyone considering it). However, the listing for the 32 long rimfire states original loading with 18 grains of blackpowder. Is this a misprint/incorrect? I thought 13 grains was correct on the long.
On another note, I recieved my bullets from "Mr Jack". As I feared, they fit too loosely for my liking in the cases.
I am using factory 32 long colt cases (inside lubed bullets, pulled). They have an OD of about .313, and an ID of about .300. The case walls are much thinner than "normal" on these. So taking the above advise, I ordered a Lee bullet sizer kit (and a proper size shell holder, Lee #4). However, I ordered the .309 sizer to be safe. Was afraid the .311 would still only give me about .001 +/- .001 neck tension. Figured I can hopefully polish out the
.309 sizer a thou or 2 if necessary, especially since I only need to size the neck area itself down a tad. I am really trying to get good tension without the need for any type of crimping.
I am under the impression that with blackpowder loads, good neck tension will give better burning characteristics?
On another note: I might be in possession of an old original Ideal tong tool with built in heeled bullet mold
marked 32 L soon..........This is the old style without separate dies, so pretty sure it will be correct.....

[Chev. William]

Chev, saw the listing in Ammoguide (I have a subscription. Great value by the way for anyone considering it). However, the listing for the 32 long rimfire states original loading with 18 grains of blackpowder. Is this a misprint/incorrect? I thought 13 grains was correct on the long.

Tom, You may be correct as the AG entry information was taken from a reading of the 1905 Marlin Catalog image posted by w44wcf on one of the threads. I copied the image to my WORD notes on the .32 Long and my copy is blurred slightly so I am not sure if it says 13 or 18 for the charge weight. Perhaps it would be a good idea to recheck the original postings in the Threads to see what is what before sending an email correction to AG support email address. Chev. William

On another note, I recieved my bullets from "Mr Jack". As I feared, they fit too loosely for my liking in the cases.

Tom, are these the "299153" bullets from J.H. who sells them on GunBroker? Chev. William

I am using factory 32 long colt cases (inside lubed bullets, pulled). They have an OD of about .313, and an ID of about .300. The case walls are much thinner than "normal" on these. So taking the above advise, I ordered a Lee bullet sizer kit (and a proper size shell holder, Lee #4). However, I ordered the .309 sizer to be safe. Was afraid the .311 would still only give me about .001 +/- .001 neck tension. Figured I can hopefully polish out the .309 sizer a thou or 2 if necessary, especially since I only need to size the neck area itself down a tad. I am really trying to get good tension without the need for any type of crimping.

Tom, That sounds like a reasonable plan but I believe it may be difficult to Polish the Hardened die much without loosing the wear resistance of the hardening process. Chev. William

I am under the impression that with blackpowder loads, good neck tension will give better burning characteristics?

I do not have enough experience with BP in these sizes to give an opinion yet, perhaps "w44wcf" will comment? Chev. William

On another note: I might be in possession of an old original Ideal tong tool with built in heeled bullet mold
marked 32 L soon..........This is the old style without separate dies, so pretty sure it will be correct.....

Tom, You got a good catch with the Ideal combination tool from everything I have read to date, Congratulations! Chev. William

I am going ot be delivering a walker to an Old Friend today, about a 150 mile round trip, so will be off the air until much later today.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Tomsp8 - I think the Lee .309" sizer will work well, so long as you can get the case about 1/2 way into the die. That will depend on the amount of taper. I have a .309" Lee sizer at home. I'm at work now, but will check the fit of a new RP .32LC case in it when I get home. I can also check with an original .32SC case.

[tomsp8]

nd, that'd be great. Chev, yes using the 299153 mold. Wasn't really sure how hardened these dies were, since they are only designed for sizing lead. Figured they would polish out/open up reasonably easily, but may be wrong. Was afraid the .311 die would not get me where I want to be. Really surprised at how thin the cases are. I put a slight burr on one case, enough to hold a bullet, and tested case length with these bullets. Had to trim to .810 to keep the bullet from "sticking", a lot shorter than I had expected. Cleaned the chamber/throat real
well first using some Birchwood Casey lead removing cloth patches. (Those things are amazing, by the way).
Again, this is a Stevens Favorite 32L model 1894.

[ndnchf]

These dies are very hard. When I shortened my .314" sizer, I tried to cut it back on the lathe using a carbide bit, it wouldn't touch it. I had to grind it down with frequent quenchings. But you should be able to open it up if needed using a split dowel, 320 grit paper and oil in an electric drill.

[tomsp8]

That's exactly how I planned to do it. Are they tapered at the entrance end? I should have the sizer
by Tuesday......waiting once again......lol

[ndnchf]

tomsp8 - I measured the entrance into my .309" Lee sizer die. It is about .319", and it is tapered from the entrance down to the .309" diameter about 3/4" - 1" up inside. A .32 LC case goes in about 3/8" by hand. I didn't try to size it, but I see no reason that it won't work. You may not need to grind the end shorter, but you'll just have to try it. Since its tapered, the amount the case is sized down will depend on how far you run the case into it. If you can't run it in far enough, then grind some off the bottom of the die. That will let you run it in further.

[tomsp8]

nd,
Thanks so much! Sounds like I'll be off and running in a few days finally.