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Thread: reloadable .32 rimfire brass

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Ndnchf,
    You are being Modest, the three .32 Extra Long Converter cases you made both look well done and the photos illustrate what you described in your text.
    As to the Residual Nickel Plating, which appears to be mostly from the mouth of the case down to about mid length, it does make the cases visually identifiable as unique and custom made.
    As to the need of the rim notch, perhaps just leaving the relief for the 22 rim shallower might reduce the need for it, perhaps by turning the parent case rim base slightly to further expose the 22 rim but still leaving a solid Brass Rim for the extractor to grab.
    The 22 rim at most will only crush until the metal is solidly against metal in the rim interior, even less if any priming residue is left after ignition.

    Next time you go to the range, please pick up some fired .22RF cases to measure the rim indent on to see how deep it really is crushed to in thickness compared to the rest of the 'as originally formed' rim. That measurement would give an idea of how much to trim the 'flange' of the converter case rim to allow full crush of the 22 Short 'blanked' case rim.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

    PS: the photo of the UMC original .32 Extra Long RF cartridge seem to indicate it is an outside lube, and possibly heeled, design bullet similar to the 299153 ones you are using in your rifles already. Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 01-08-2014 at 12:46 PM.

  2. #62
    Boolit Master

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    I'm trying to keep the overall combined .32/.22 rim thickness pretty close to the original .32 rim thickness. Headpace is a bit loose, so I can leave the .22 a little proud with no problem. I've ordered new hammer and breech block pivot pins and hope I will be able to fit them and perhaps take up a little of the headspace. After that I'll fine tune the depth and decide what to do with the notch. Another thing I thought about was making a new firing pin, but grind the tip to about half its diameter and shape it so it only hits the .22 rim. But that would weaken the tip somewhat and I don't know if it would stand up to repeated use.

    Until I determine if the bore will shoot, I don't want to invest much $ into making the cases. If it doesn't shoot well, I'll likely have it relined to either .32 S&W Long or .32-20....or maybe even rechamber it for the original .32 XL. If I were to keep it .32 XL rimfire, I may buy either a .315" chucking reamer to make the .22 hole closer to the case size to avoid blow-by, or buy a .22 chamber reamer and use it to cut the hole and recess together.

    The bullet in the original cartridge is almost a dead ringer for the Lyman 299153 bullet. COTW says the .32 XL uses the same bullet as the .32 long, it just has more powder.

  3. #63
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndnchf View Post
    I'm trying to keep the overall combined .32/.22 rim thickness pretty close to the original .32 rim thickness. Headpace is a bit loose, so I can leave the .22 a little proud with no problem. I've ordered new hammer and breech block pivot pins and hope I will be able to fit them and perhaps take up a little of the headspace. After that I'll fine tune the depth and decide what to do with the notch. Another thing I thought about was making a new firing pin, but grind the tip to about half its diameter and shape it so it only hits the .22 rim. But that would weaken the tip somewhat and I don't know if it would stand up to repeated use.

    Until I determine if the bore will shoot, I don't want to invest much $ into making the cases. If it doesn't shoot well, I'll likely have it relined to either .32 S&W Long or .32-20....or maybe even rechamber it for the original .32 XL. If I were to keep it .32 XL rimfire, I may buy either a .315" chucking reamer to make the .22 hole closer to the case size to avoid blow-by, or buy a .22 chamber reamer and use it to cut the hole and recess together.

    The bullet in the original cartridge is almost a dead ringer for the Lyman 299153 bullet. COTW says the .32 XL uses the same bullet as the .32 long, it just has more powder.
    Ndnchf,
    Where did you order the screws from?

    ". . . . .315" Chucking Reamer to make the .22 hole . . . . . " Is this a Typo?
    I do not think a .22 Case is .315 diameter. Am I incorrect?

    I agree with going 'slow and inexpensive' until you find out how accurate the barrel is.
    I thought you said it had good rifling left in it. Am I incorrect again? What did the measurements of Bore/Groove diameters (from a 'Slugging' of the bore) come out as?
    Perhaps I am just not reading the back posts correctly.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  4. #64
    Boolit Master

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    Typo - sure is, what was I thinking? I should have written .225" reamer. The barrel has rifling all the way, but a fair bit of pitting and roughness too. I did not slug the bore on this one yet. My #4 measures .3085" ish. I imagine this will be pretty similar, but since the bullets are .315" (maybe that's what I was thinking earlier), I'm pretty sure they are plenty large for whatever the bore/groove size is.

  5. #65
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    ndnchf, I think your firing pin idea is the next level of genius here. I have made replacement firing pins out of W-1 drill rod for several old guns and they work fine even without any heat treat. If you feel the need to heat treat one I would suggest heating above the critical temperature (approx. where it goes non-magnetic), quench in oil not water and draw at 600 to get a spring temper. You can get an accurate repeatable temper if you have a lead pot with a thermometer. By using W-1 you can perform any machining process, if you don't heat treat it will last a long time (my 38/55 has several 1000 rounds on an untreated W-1 pin) and if you feel it's better heat treated W-1 is very easily done with simple methods. What I really like about your idea is the tip being turned eccentric to miss the parent brass all together because it does take a little beating where it gets hit on the overlap (at least with the heavy mainspring on my gun) and of course that damage is cumulative and we know all the effort it takes to make them.
    kootne

  6. #66
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    For right now I'll stay with the notched cases, but a firing pin mod could come later. I made up three more cases tonight and loaded up six cartridges to take to the range. I used some noise blanks that had a crimped card rather than a star crimp and dumped the powder out. This allowed the 3F black powder to fill up the blank and case around it. I put in 13gr of 3F and that filled it almost to the base of the bullet, but I did not compress it. If I get a break in the weather in the next couple days I'll take it out for a test fire.


  7. #67
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    Ndnchf,
    Those six cartridges do look Nice! What lube are you going to use?
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 08-20-2014 at 01:06 AM.

  8. #68
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    I applied Emmert's lube after I took the photo. I typically use Lee Alox with my smokeless load. For the .32 long colt in the little #4 rolling block I've been using 4.5gr of Hercules 2400 for a very mild, accurate load with the same bullet. I thought about using the 2400 in these, but I really don't know where to start with it. My experience is mostly with BP. The can of 2400 I have is from around 1980 and still has the $8.95 price tag on it

  9. #69
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    ndnchf,
    After you test with your 6 rounds, you might consider using the 4.5gr charge as a starting point for the .32 Extra Long (.32 XL) since it is being used in about the same bore/Groove dimensions and using the same bullet. this is base on my assumption that since this charge and bullet worked in a .32 Long Colt it should work in the larger .32XL case. Then work up slowly to a load that gives you your preferred accuracy and reasonable velocity for your Remington.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  10. #70
    Boolit Master

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    Chev - 4.5gr of 2400 is a nice easy load in my #4. On the other forum where we've been discussing .32 Long Colt for the last few months, 5.0gr was suggested by one well respected fellow and used by him and others as a nice load in small rifles. So I'm thinking if all goes well with the first test rounds I may start around 5.0gr. Since this is a much stronger rifle than the #4 or other similar boys rifles.

    Tonight I was reading through Nonte's cartridge conversions book, specifically looking at the .32 Ballard Extra Long (BXL) which is essentially the centerfire equivalent of the .32 XL rimfire. Nonte says 9.0gr of 2400 will give 1200 fps with a 100gr bullet. That's a lot more powder. Then looking at COTW at the .32BXL, barnes says 9.0gr of 4198 will give 1360 fps with a 115gr bullet. COTW also says the .32 XL was loaded with 18-20gr of BP (depending on manufacturer) and the same 90gr bullet as the .32 Long.

    My cases a fairly thick, being made from the 327 Federal Magnum brass, so capacity is less than original cases. First things first, I plan to test fire it tomorrow. If it works well and I don't get much leakage from the .22 blank joint, then I'll make some more cases and load some with 2400 and maybe some with Trail Boss. Unfortunately I'm almost out of 2400 and have not been able to find any more.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    Ndnchf,
    I know that feeling about finding specific powders in the last year.
    My local Reloading Store was 'very light' on powder selections most of the year, I Finlay was able to buy one pound of 2400 in November after repeated trips to the shop over the year.
    It took me 6 months of trying to get a package of 1000 primers (Small Rifle) before I finally was successful.

    The Huge Uptick in Component and ammunition purchases we have all witnessed this past year looks to me like it will continue but at a slightly eased rate in the coming year. Manufacturers are slowly increasing capacity beyond their multiple shift present production capability so I expect the problem to ease up as this increased production capacity comes on line in the future.

    I have looked at Lowe's and Home Depot for either Grey (grade 1) or brown (grade 2) in all three calibers but have only found brown in one Caliber listed in their on-line catalogs. Strange, I remember back in 1970s that they were available in all twelve grades in 22 caliber in my Local Hardware Store. I had finally settled on the grade 7 ones after trying each load in grades 1 through 6 in my Ruger Standard Automatic to see if they would feed and cycle with no satisfaction.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  12. #72
    Boolit Master

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    Went out this afternoon and test fired my 6 rounds. Its a nasty, rainy day here, around 35 degrees. Fortunately I have a covered firing line so I was able to stay mostly dry.

    For the first shot I covered the breech with a paper towel and then a towel. I didn't know what to expect for blowby or leakage at the .22 blank joint. Wearing safety glasses and holding it away from my face I fired it into the backstop. If fired just fine. Removing the paper towel showed just a very small amount of leakage. Here is the breech when I opened it:



    The leakage apears to be blowby from the case mouth (I didn't anneal the brass yet). There didn't seam to be much, if any leakage from the .22 blank joint. So I wiped the bore and prceeded to shoot the remaining 5 rounds at a target 25 yards away. All rounds fired just fine. Accuracy was nothing special, but I didn't really expect much. This was really just a functional test and fireforming of the brass. The 1st, 3rd and 4th shots went into a decent a group a little over 2". But the 2nd and 5th shots went up at 11:00 O'clock. Not sure what happened there. But the bore is well worn and the muzzle is a little beat up.



    But I'm very pleased with how well the cartridges worked. I'm going to make some more brass and get back out to the range soon. It is a fun little rifle

  13. #73
    Boolit Master
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    Ndnchf,
    Glad your test round worked well!
    The 5 rounds fired at target may have spread from the results of unequal neck tension (causing variations in chamber pressure) from the reformed cases or possible disturbance from the Bore/Crown. It is apparent that more shooting is in your future.

    In the mean time and just to add some information on your results, would you check the "Crush" of the .22 rim where your firing pin hit, is it flush with the cut surface you put in the case rim or is it slightly 'proud' of that surface? What is the thickness of the crushed rim as fired? What is the thickness of a separate part of the rim if you hit it in a 'dummy chamber' with a pin punch and a hammer? The intent of these questions is to know how thick the rim can be crushed to for future reference. Obviously you are crushing it sufficiently to cause the round to fire but how much 'over travel' would still exist.

    Additionally, if you have any of the Powder Tool Loads you fired, would you also check how much 'crush' is possible on their rims? I believe they are made from a thicker wall than the .22 RF cases used for normal cartridges.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 03-17-2016 at 12:04 PM.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master

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    Its hard to get exact measurements in the crushed area but here is what I have:

    Super X blanks: rim- .041", firing pin crush- .030" and still a little proud of the bottom of the machined notch. Crush on other side of rim with pin punch- .029" - .030" ( a bit distorted so hard to measure.

    I don't have any .22 power tool blanks, just .27. But I had pulled the bullets from a few CCI .22 shorts. Here is how the CCI measures: rim- .041", firing pin crush- .032" (but this was in a .32 case without relief slot. The .32 rim was beat a bit at the corresponding location.

    I then put this CCI .22 case in a .32 case with the relief cut and put it in the rifle and pulled the trigger. Then measured the dent at .031-.0315".

    The bottom line appears to be that the rims are crushed as far as possible. Hit with a pin punch tended to distort and squish brass outward. Hope this helps!

  15. #75
    Boolit Master
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    Yes, it does. Now we know that the RF rims "maximum" Crush is about .030" thick, which would seem indicates a .015" thick wall at the rim area.
    Since you are measuring the same rims, uncrushed, at about .041" I gather that indicates about .011 space inside that holds the primer mix.
    Nice details to know.
    With my Dial Caliper I get about .042" on a Ramset Grade 2 .22 cal loads.
    A Ramset .25 Cal. Grade 2 load rim measures about .050".
    A Ramset .25 Cal. Grade 3 load rim measures about .051".
    A Ramset .27 Cal. Grade 3 load rim measures about .049".
    Given the general measurement accuracy and the problems with measuring around the radius of the rim-body junction, I would surmise that the Ramset Cal .25 and .27 Powder Tool Loads rims are about .050" thick as manufactured. it seems that the .22 cal one is about the same as a standard 22RF cartridge rim.
    Now if we could find some Grade 1 Loads in .22 Cal, which I have not found listed on any internet sales sites yet, it might be nice to try them as 'primers' without emptying the original powder, of course starting with no added powder and seeing what the Chronograph says the Muzzle Velocity is.
    Unless I do find some Grade 1 Loads, in any of the Calibers, the lightest ones I have are the Grade 2 in .22 and .25 Caliber to try when I get my Actions back.

    A new poster, "Broken Arrow", has posted to the "1894 Stevens . . . . ." thread on CAS City with some descriptions of his work with RF and CF obsolete Cartridges from .25 through .46 Calibers.
    He reports some interesting firearms in his post.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 01-11-2014 at 05:30 PM.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master

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    I was thinking that the little .22 cal acorn blanks for starter pistols or dog training might be feasible with a black powder load. They are very mild. They may be similar to a magnum primer and help the BP to burn clean. Probably not a good idea in the little #4 RRB rifle, but the #2 is much stronger and it may work well.

    I wanted to make a comment to those of you who are reading this thread and are interested in shooting an old .32 rimfire. You may look at my posts and think "that's neat, but I don't have a lathe, so I can't make reloadable rimfire cases". While having a lathe make it easier, it is not necessary. Once you have your .32 long colt cases or equivalent, all you need is drill press, vice, a #1 (.228") drill bit and a 9/32" (.281") drill bit. Gently, but firmly clamp the case in the drill press vice, center it under the chuck and drill all the way through the primer pocket with the #1 drill. Then drill the rim recess with the 9/32" bit. Drill just a little at a time and test fit a .22 blank. Go slow and easy until the .22 rim is flush or just a hair proud of the .32 rim. Use a needle file to cut a relief notch for the firing pin if needed for your rifle. Once you get things set up, its pretty easy to do. Most any gun crank with a little skill can make these cases. As they say "it ain't rocket science"

  17. #77
    Boolit Master
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    I believe Dixie Gun works lists the "Acorn" type blanks in the same area as the machined "RF adapters" they sell, but I have no tchecked their website lately to see if they are in stock.

    Your summary instructions for making suitable adapter cases is very good.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  18. #78
    Boolit Master

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    Chev - what forum is the 1894 Stevens discussion under? I've seen it before, but can't find it now (using a blackberry so things are not shown in the usual way) I'd like to see what this other fellow is doing.

  19. #79
    Boolit Master
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    In "CAS City Forums" use "Stevens Favorite" as a search term, the Thread title is:
    "1894 Stevens favorite, Calibers .22,.25,.32, others, either RF or CF" and is
    shown in "The Shootin' Range" area.
    On my Computer it shows up at the top of the list with a relevance of 62.4%.
    This one was started by me when I first joined CAS City.

    Also the ".32 Long Colt ,Need Help" thread show up forth in the list with a relevance of 45.7%.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  20. #80
    Boolit Master

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    Got it - thanks. I hadn't thought of looking there. BTW, there are several web companies that specialize in selling blanks, most are less costly for the acorns than Dixie.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check