reloadable .32 rimfire brass

[tomsp8]

I drilled it out with a 7/32 bit, (.218) and used a metal dowl rod with med/course sandpaper taped around it till snug, and opened it up
to about .225 for a snug press fit. A little slow, but not too bad. A little case lube helps it to press in, and seems to make it easier to deprime without deforming the somewhat weakened rim of the 32 case. I definately wanted a good even seal to prevent gas blowback, just like a primer.
Then I used my case chamferer to open it up to the width of the 22 blank rim to allow it to seat almost flush. Crude, but worked as test to ensure that the primer would work and case would chamber. Didn't want the breach to "crush" the blank while closing it.
Working on a jig to hold the case and a drill press so I can drill the step at 9/32 (.281) and consistantly control the depth. Blank rim diameter is about .278 and avg rim thickness appears to be around .040/.045. I will hand pick the blanks I use to match rim thickness as close as possible if nec to ensure consistant total rim thickness on the completed rounds.
I'm currently using short colt cases, but on the lookout for some long cases on the cheap. What are you using for bullets?
I bought my original ones (modified offset drilled cases and bullets) from hc-collection out of France, but the bullets are actually oversized sightly (.316/.318) for my rifle. Had to size them down to about .313 to chamber freely. I only have 3 bullets left (Only bought the
pack of 12 to try them and test the rifle). But I like tinkering and would prefer to make my own, other than casting the bullet since I don't see the cost of a mold as being worth it for this project. Money is extemely tight right now, so cheap/frugal is unfortunately an absolute necessity for me!
Ultimately, want to have long cases, with the proper 90 gr outside lubed heeled bullet, loaded with black powder or bp substitute, just like
originally designed.

[Chev. William]

Jack Harrison sells both "299153" Bullets (90 Grain RN outside lube heeled) and .32 Long colt empty cases (resized Starline .32 S&W Long) on "GunBroker.com" (use a search for 299153 bullet and for .32 Long colt Brass to find the auctions.
"Carolina Cast Bullets" Sells the "299153" cast Bullets commercially.
There are other design bullets also available that are suitable for use in the .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt cases.
"Matt's Bullets" is starting to commercially cast the Accurate Mold "311090A" design of 90 Grain RFN heeled Inside Lube bullet. and he says his initial trials drop at .312" driving band diameter and .303" heel diameter.
"Old West Moulds" also has some designs that should work, mostly outside lube heeled designs.
They also make an adjustable Collet Crimp die and shell holder set that allow crimping the Heeled bullet design in .32 short and long Cases. I have purchased a set and they work very well.
There are probably many more sources that I have not run across so keep your eyes open and please report on any you find.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

ndnchf,
Have you tried the Grade three load as manufactured, with no added powder, in your drilled out case and with a 'wax plug'? I think from my readings of others uses it would actually send a Ball, or Bullet, out your rifle safely for the action and yourself. From my reading I would guess the result would be about 700fps Muzzle Velocity for a 90 Grain bullet.
Note that I have NOT tried this my self as I still do not have a rifle to shoot them in, my actions are still in the hands of my Gunsmith.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

My computer crapped out, so I'm working from my Blackberry and the wife's notebook, Please bear with me.

I made a .22 blank cartridge centered in the .32 case and it worked! I drilled out the case with a #1 bit which is about .227", a tad large for the .224" diameter .22 short case I used. I drilled the rim recess with a 9/32" bit. I left it so the blank would be just a little proud. I loaded it up with 3F and topped with a wax wad and tested it in my garage - BANG! It worked good. So I reloaded it and tried it a second time - BANG again Here's a pics of the .32 case and empty .22 short.



Here is the .22 blank case next to the .27 blank case for comparison.



I like the .22 better because it leaves a stronger rim. Plus home depot has the brown .22 nail gun blanks if needed.

I'm using Lyman 299153 bullets. A guy on Gunbroker named Jack Harrison sells the bullets and .32 Long Colt brass he makes from .32 S&W long brass. The bullets are pretty reasonable. The heel is .299" and the bands are .315". They weigh a little under 90gr. I make my own cases pretty much like Jack does, by sizing them down in 2 steps with dies, then turning off the roll of brass that is created and reducing the body diameter a little on a lathe. Then I ream the case mouth with a .299" neck reamer. Look on Gunbroker for his ad. If you can't find it let me know. I've got his email address in my notes.

[ndnchf]

Jack Harrison sells both "299153" Bullets (90 Grain RN outside lube heeled) and .32 Long colt empty cases (resized Starline .32 S&W Long) on "GunBroker.com" (use a search for 299153 bullet and for .32 Long colt Brass to find the auctions.
"Carolina Cast Bullets" Sells the "299153" cast Bullets commercially.
There are other design bullets also available that are suitable for use in the .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt cases.
"Matt's Bullets" is starting to commercially cast the Accurate Mold "311090A" design of 90 Grain RFN heeled Inside Lube bullet. and he says his initial trials drop at .312" driving band diameter and .303" heel diameter.
"Old West Moulds" also has some designs that should work, mostly outside lube heeled designs.
They also make an adjustable Collet Crimp die and shell holder set that allow crimping the Heeled bullet design in .32 short and long Cases. I have purchased a set and they work very well.
There are probably many more sources that I have not run across so keep your eyes open and please report on any you find.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Are the green blanks the grade #3? I fired one, but just as a blank. I've not yet taken the new rifle out to the range. Not knowing what powder is in them makes me shy away from shooting a bullet with them. But maybe I'm overly cautious.

[kootne]

Hi guys, I see what you are doing is similar to what has worked for me. I do thin the rims a little to leave the .22 blank's rim a little "proud" to ensure it gets hit hard enough. I too did not like the .27's because the .32 rim got too thin. I drilled my cases with a bit that left a couple thou press fit and cut my rim with a boring bar using a dial indicator to keep the depth the same on each one. After I got my rifle shooting I was made aware of 2 articles in the Single Shot Exchange, (july & oct. 2010) regarding similar projects for .25 &.32RF's. Those back issues are available to order. The author uses a slightly different machining proceedure in that he cuts his "primer" pocket with a .22 chamber reamer and squeezes his blanks to give the fit required to retain them. So there is more food for thought. Actually I think he is pulling bullets from .22 shorts for his primers but in the current .22 rimfire availabilty situation I'm saving my .22 ammo.
The only blanks I can get locally are CCI .22 noise blanks which are crimped to a point and if the case is not full of black powder they open too far (bell or mushroom) and are not easily removed. Filling the case with 3f black seems to provide enough resistance to prevent this.
kootne

[ndnchf]

Using a .22 chamber reamer to cut the cases would be the cat's meow. But as we've shown, it can be done with proper drill bits. Where do you buy the CCI .22 noise blanks?

Chev Williams suggested I may have a .32 extra long chamber. So I just took come careful measurements and it turns out he was correct - my #2 rolling block is chambered for .32 rimfire Extra Long. That is a case length of 1.15". Wow - that's a surprise!

[kootne]

I left out a feature that the SSE magazine author incorporated in his cases. He left the rims full thickness and milled a slot at the .22 rim depth out across what is left of the .32 rim. He then insures that slot aligns with his firing pin. I have not found this to be necessary myself.
I get the .22 noise blanks at the local gun store, for the last year that is the only .22 shells to found most of the time. I think they are used to train bird dogs to gunfire.
Remember that a heel bullet chamber is cut to include part of the length of the loaded bullet and the case, not just the case. Here is a good way to determine your case length; push a bullet in from the breech with a dowel or pencil til it just touches the rifling. Using the depth feature of a dial caliper,measure from the barrel face to the bullets base. Add the length of the heel and you have the maximum length your case can be. If this is longer than a .32 long. try reforming/swaging .32 H&R magnum or maybe .327 Federal to get your length. As long as you load with black powder I don't think there will be any problem in a #2 Remington.
kootne

[ndnchf]

I can see where the slot might be helpful to avoid rim damage, but I don't know that it is necessary. I measured the chamber exactly as you described using a Lyman 299153 bullet and came up with the 1.15" length which matches the length shown in COTW for .32 extra long. Now to find some .327 federal magnum brass to make my cases.

[tomsp8]

Loving this thread....! And the links to the heeled bullets is a big help.

[kootne]

I forgot to say, trim up one empty case to your determined length and make sure it enter the chamber and the breech closes before loading up your shells. Just to insure the chamber is that long and the bullet didn't go in that far because of an oversize or worn bore. The case will probably be .318"-.320" and the 299153 is probably .313"-.315". Otherwise you might end figuring this out the same way I did.
So now that we have them shooting again, wished I lived closer to better rabbit hunting.
kootne

[Chev. William]

Are the green blanks the grade #3? I fired one, but just as a blank. I've not yet taken the new rifle out to the range. Not knowing what powder is in them makes me shy away from shooting a bullet with them. But maybe I'm overly cautious.

Ndnchf,
Yes, Green on a Brass case is the color code for Grade 3 Powder Tool Loads.
I repeat the Color code below copied from another post:
"In brass casing:
Color-coding (Velocity)
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s) 1.31 grains propellant
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

In nickel (silver) casings:
(7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
(8)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s)
(9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
(10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
(11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
(12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"
I have also run across a Brass cased Blue coded Load but do not remember where I saw it or what it's relative Power level was.
I hope this list is of use to you.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Is anyone 'playing with the .32 Extra Short RF cartridge? It seems all the other 'members of the .318" case diameter Family' are now being actively shot again, pretty good for an Obsolete Cartridge family.
The list includes:
.32 Extra Short RF (case length .398")
.32 Short RF (case length .575")
.32 Long RF (case length .920")
.32 Long Rifle RF (case length .937")
.32 Extra Long Rf (case length 1.150")
.32 Short Colt CF (case length .650")
.32 Long Colt CF (case length .916")
Similar cartridges include:
300 Sherwood, .300(.295) Rook, .32 Extra Long Ballard, and .310 Cadet.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the clarification Chev!

[kootne]

Is anyone 'playing with the .32 Extra Short RF cartridge? It seems all the other 'members of the .318" case diameter Family' are now being actively shot again, pretty good for an Obsolete Cartridge family.
The list includes:
.32 Extra Short RF (case length .398")
.32 Short RF (case length .575")
.32 Long RF (case length .920")
.32 Long Rifle RF (case length .937")
.32 Extra Long Rf (case length 1.150")
.32 Short Colt CF (case length .650")
.32 Long Colt CF (case length .916")
Similar cartridges include:
300 Sherwood, .300(.295) Rook, .32 Extra Long Ballard, and .310 Cadet.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

I think in the case of .32 long rimfire the case may be that long if the bullet is a .299 inside lubed hollow base but if loaded with a heel bullet I think you will find original cases are shorter to allow for the approximately bore diameter portion of the bullet to fit into the chamber. As a practical observation, in some cases the bore diameter is large enough to allow the bullet to go far enough forward to use a full length .32 long case with a heel bullet. If that is the case, they may be more accurate and certainly more black powder can be added for more velocity.
I also think that .32 Long Rifle rimfire and the .32 Long rim fire with inside (.299 hollowbase) are for practical purposes the same vehicle with different bumperstickers. These are just my observations, don't have any reference material to back me up.
Also, some of you have noted and it is a concern to me also that the load be appropriate for the specific firearm. If I were to load for a Favorite or one of #4 or #6 rollers or any number of similar "weak" boy's rifles I would empty any smokeless out of the priming cartridge and just use black powder for the load. There is a very noticable velocity increase if I use use the CCI noise blanks plus filling the remainder of the case with 3f vs. dumping the smokeless out of the noise blank. I would not worry about the hotter loads in #2,#1-1/2,#1 rollers, Stevens 44's, Whitneys, Hopkins & Allens 932's, Low wall Winchesters etc. A lot of boy's type rifles are not even recomended to shoot Hi speed .22 LR ammo in. Please use discretion here, I'd just as soon not hear from your widow's lawyer saying I was responsible for a "unfortunate situation".
kootne

[Chev. William]

Kootne,
I agree that due caution MUST BE OBSERVED any time we are developing new loads for ANY firearm.

The use of Powder Tool Loads or 'Starter Pistol' blanks as 'primers' is definitely within the realm of New Load Development. The use of any 'blank' should start with determining it's performance without any added powder beyond what is in the 'Blank'. Once that 'Performance' is documented AND it is within the area of safe operation for the Firearm, then adding powder in small increments would be the normal development process. Going from a given Grade of Tool Load to the Same Grade with the remainder of the case filled with powder, be it BP or Smokeless, is NOT the normal Development route nor procedure.
That being said, What Grade Tool Load did you use with the full case of BP, and exactly how much BP was in that case? What projectile did you use? Did you 'Chronograph' the load?
From my Readings, I know that Grade 3 has been used by itself to send projectiles down range safely. and Grade 1 and Grade 2 have been used with added powder, both BP and Smokeless, also to send projectiles down range safely BUT not as a first test round. They worked up to the final charge weight slowly and carefully. With Smokeless additions, the amount was NOT full case loads after development, because the developer was interested in duplicating original performance up to about Sonic Velocities (~1124fps) or less, so as not to overstress original unmodified actions.

I believe 'ndnchf' is one who develops loads for his firearms with Due Caution.

Others, I have communicated with on other Forums have given me the same impression of Cautious Development of loads for their Firearms.

There have been some few 'Lurkers' who interject without learning what is being discussed before sending their 'Blasts" and I hope they Read and Know Who I mean. These Threads and Forums are for the exchange for information relating to experiments that are intended to develop SAFE and USEFUL methods and knowledge to get Obsolete Cartridges and Old Firearms into Shooting condition.

Best Regards,
Chev. William.

[ndnchf]

In my #4 rolling block I've been using .32 long colt cases trimmed to .775 and the Lyman 299153 bullet. The .32 extra long case at 1.15" gives 3/8" more length. They will probably hold 15-16gr of 3F, depending on case thickness. Fortunately, the #2 is much stronger than the #4, that's probably why the #4 was never chambered for the extra long cartridge. I just bought 400 rounds of .22 short. I pulled the bullets and dumped the powder from a couple of them to use them as primers. The priming charge seems stronger in these than in the Ramsets, which is good. Hopefully it will give better ignition of smokeless powder if I load some.

Believe me, I'm taking due caution in any loads I use in old rifles. I'm retired from the navy and currently work for the navy as a weapon systems safety engineer. So risk assessment and management is my business. The unknown powder in the Ramsets really makes them a wildcard in loading. At this point I don't see any reason to chance using them with the unknown powder.

[kootne]

The only "Ramset or nailgun blanks I have used are .27 grade 3. Please note with these blanks I machined the crimped end off with a narrow parting tool and dumped the powder. Those loads were loaded with straight black powder (3f goex from a can with lot #03-89 over 90No13C as best I can read it). They were loaded in cases measuring .780 long, I did not measure the powder except to insure it came to the base of the bullet with about 1/32" of compression. Basically a straight black powder load but surely less than original loads due to heavier brass and solid head.
The .22 blanks I use are NOT nailset blanks, they are CCI noise blanks for training bird dogs to get used to gunfire and I think are also used in some starter pistols. I do not think I have ever mentioned using nailset blanks, I don't have any and am not sure they are even available in my small town but if anything I have written gives the impression that is what I am using I apologize because I am well aware there is a lot of potential power in them as you go up in grade #.
I do not have a chronograph but it is no great trick to compare and differentiate approximate velocity by comparing the delay between "bang" and "thump" at a 50 yard berm. Here are my loads in order of developtement.
1. using .27 #3 Ramset with crimp trimmed off and original powder dumped, .780 case filled w/3f oex. 299153 bullet used in all loads. This load has a similar bang/thump lag to CCI CB Longs fired from 1906 Win. rifle. (CCI CB Long box says 710 fps)
2. CCI noise blank with crimp opened and powder dumped, case filled with black.This takes a bit less black to fill the case because the crimp wasn't trimmed from the blank but velocity very similar to load 1.
3. CCI noise blank unmodified (still has the powder), balance of case filled with black. Apparent velocity similar or possibly slightly faster than .22 LR std. velocity fired from same 1906 rifle as above. No sonic "crack". This load the actual weight of the 3f black is 8 grains in my load.
4. Same load as #3 only in a .910 long case will "crack" but does not get to the berm quite as quick as CCI .22WRF loads in 1890 win. (I have an old G&A magazine reference of 1270-1408fps for this ammo)
Note; I have not tried using the CCI noise blank or the .27 Ramset #3 as the sole propellant.

I can't tell much accuracy difference between loads #3 & #4. For lack of a better term at the moment I would say they are a duplex load in a similar to slightly higher velocity range compared to original loads. Traditional duplex loads are known to easily give higher pressures than straight black loads. My action is very robust compared to many .32's. I personally would not ever use or recomend adding any smokless powder beyond what comes in the CCI noise blanks. The potential for expotential pressure increase is well known with smokeless but much less with black powder. I think we are probably all saying about the same thing; light loads in weak actions, strong actions are inherently safer. As for myself I wouldn't shoot anything in most of the old .32 rf pistols I've seen.
kootne

[Chev. William]

It looks like we are all on the 'Same Page' in being cautious in our loads.

My only loads so far are using .32 Long colt case of .912" to .914" length, CCI Small Pistol Magnum (SPM) primers and case charged with 9 grains of 3fg GOEX behind a 299153 Bullet for use by my Gunsmith to Test a 1894 upgraded strength action. Due to my error in measuring the length of chamber in the barrel I left with the gunsmith, I had to run the finished rounds into a Seat/crimp die far enough to reduce the first and second driving band down to .299" diameter, the third driving band remained at as cast dimension.
I also made up some .25 Stevens CF rounds with 1.125" case length, CCI SPM primers and case charged with 3fg GOEX and topped with a .251" 50 Grain Cast RFN bullet. Again, The rounds are with my Gunsmith with the barrel to test with the 1894 Upgraded Strength action.

I have been experimenting with .25ACP both standard and lengthened cases but have NOT fired any yet. These are tentatively called .250ALR, .250ALS, .250ALRM, .250ALC, .250ALRE, and .250ALRx Basis for the lengths I have diagrammed with respective lengths of 1.050", 1.125", 1.250", 1.260", 1.350", and whatever I can get from a reformed .22 Hornet case whose starting length is 1.400".
The .25ACP case will hold 4.5 grains of 3fg GOEX with compression if loaded to an overall length of .850" with the 50 grain Cast bullet. This is the 'limit' compression I believe as the ONE I tried to compress to .840" overall length jammed the case in my Shell Holder and when I finally got the base out it had an imprint of the bottom o the shell holder 'relief cuts' in it. The BP had been compressed to a 'Solid Block' that I had to dig out with a fine tip tool to the last little bit.

My Experience with Powder Tool Loads has been in a Ruger Standard Automatic and a Marlin Model 56 rifle without projectiles so far. The pistol was fitted with a 'blank firing adapter and i used grade 7 Tool blanks in it that cycled the action very reliably in my use as a Training firearm with my Reserve unit in 1969 to 1974.
So far the Marlin has only been used to dispose of Old tool loads, firing at a Range with no bullets used and no blank adapter fitted as the Marlin is a Lever Action.

The .25 and .27 sizes have not been fired by me yet in any 'blank adapter' cases but I have been experimenting with assembling cartridges using .25 Cal Tool Blanks and .013" wall 9/32 OD Brass tubing swaged down to .276 OD. I am trying various methods to hold the blank in the tubing to allow also loading with a .251" cast bullet. The Rim is just large enough to allow chambering in a .25 Stevens barrel but I have NOT fired any yet, I still do not have a Strengthened/upgraded action fitted with a barrel back from my Gunsmith.

As to the powder used in the Tool Blanks, I do not know it's actual characteristics but I have read reports of others and I surmise that the Primer mixture and Powder used are None-Corrosive and 'Smokeless' as observed in their normal industrial use. The 'Dog Training' or 'Starter Pistol' Blanks I have no idea what they contain. Do they 'smoke'? Are they 'corrosive'? perhaps one of you could shed some light on this subject?

Kootne,
Your description of your loads 1, 2 and 3 tests and comparisons seem to indicate the bullets were all subsonic from the test rounds, while the 22LR standard Velocity round is supposed to be supersonic according to general factory data (you reported no 'crack' from the test rounds but a 22LR Std Velocity should have a 'Crack' but not necessarily a strong one).
Your test load number 4 comparison to the .22WRF sounds like it is supersonic but the present .22WRF seem to be loaded to around 1300fps from what I have read. Perhaps some further comparison testing with 22LR of various velocity loadings may provide a finer indication of relative velocity (time to impact in your testing).

Ndnchf,
Your descriptions of the conversion of .32 Long Colt cases to try with the various Blanks and Tool Loads have given me a 'curiosity bug' to try converting a few of the one box of .300 Sherwood cases I have to adapt each size of Load (.22, .25, and .27 Calibers) to experiment with.

My Experiments with the .25 Cal ones with Tubing are still in progress as I have not yet found a truly satisfactory way of positively retaining the blank in the tubing to allow subsequent processing. I may consider 'reversing the loading sequence', e.g.: inserting the bullet in the tubing before the Blank.
The .27 Cal blanks could chamber in a .25 Stevens but would need to be separate form the bullet (Breech loading?).
I have not addressed the possible use of .22 Cal. blanks in .25 Stevens yet but again that may be possible with either Blank adapters or tubing (more than one size put together before swaging to case OD). Alternatively the much longer process of reforming a .22 Hornet case then machining it to form a 'Blank Adapter case' could be tried.

This week I am On Call for Jury Duty, which means I call in each evening to see if I need to physically report to the Court House the next day.
So I am off my Union Dispatcher Call List for Work Calls until this Jury duty commitment is completed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I made some good progress on the .32 extra long last night. This case is 1.15" long, 3/8" longer than the .775" .32 long cases I use in the #4 rolling block. Here is an original UMC .32 extra long cartridge:



Through the help and generosity of another local Cast Boolits member, I obtained a supply of 327 Federal Magnum brass to use as the parent case for reloadable .32 extra long. I went to work on it last night. Here is what I came up with:



The 327 Federal Magnum brass had to trimmed to length, sized down in three steps, then put in the lathe and the base area up about 1/2" from the rim was reduced in diameter to about .318". They were trimmed again since they grow from all the sizing. Then the case mouths were reamed to .299" to take the Lyman 299153 heel bullet. That made the basic case that would chamber in the #2 RRB.

Next was adapting them to take the .22 rimfire case for ignition. Back in the lathe, the primer pocket was drilled out with a #1 size bit for a slip fit of the .22 case. Then the rim recess was drilled to a depth that allowed the .22 to sit just a few thousandths proud of the .32 case rim. Contrary to what I said previously, I decided to mill a small recess in the .32 rim for the firing pin. Since the firing pin hits on the very edge of the .22 rim, part of the firing pin tip hits the .32 case rim which is solid. This could reduce the blow to the .22 rim. So by milling a small recess, the full impact of the firing pin is applied to the .22 rim.

It sounds like a lot of work and it was. I made three cases as a trial and will go to the range in the next few days to try them out. if you look closely, you can see the milled recess for the firing pin tip here:



The discoloration on the cases is from the nickel plating that was partially removed in the conversion process. If the cases work well and the worn bore will put bullets in a decent group, then I'll try to simplify and better standardize how to make these cases. I learned a lot last night and have some ideas on how to more easily make them.

Sorry about the rather crappy photos, my regular camera was dead and I had to take these with my cell phone camera. Now, back to my day job