Question for those experienced with Titegroup and the Lee Pro Auto Disk

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I'm wanting to load Titegroup in the Lee Pro Auto Disk and I'm wanting to run between 3.4 to 3.7 grains of Titegroup powder. I have standard disks, the Micrometer adjustable charge bar and I have the micro disk setup available and on hand.

Rather than me reinventing the wheel, what's the best way to go to get accurate, repeatable measurements in the weight range I'm looking at with Titegroup and the Pro auto disk measure?

BTW, I'm only interested in dealing with the Titegroup right now, as that's all I have on hand and I have 8 pounds of it.

I have the alternative of a Hornady LnL and an RCBS Uniflow, but would really like to get the Lee working on this, just not sure the best way to go. If I get the powder working like I want, I'll be leaving this powder measure setup on a Lee die to load 9MM with the Lee 358-105 SWC mold.

Regards,

Dave

[jawjaboy]

Dave, I tried TG for the first time about a week ago using the Pro Auto. I had to bump up 2 cavity sizes to get my desired weight, but the disc threw them consistently ~.1 gr!

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

What weight were you throwing and what disk sizes were you using? That would help me tremendously, as I can calculate the cavity sizes I want to run based on your results. This will get me in the ballpark a little quicker and save me some time.

BTW, I'm trying to preplan, as I'm loading .45ACP right now.

Regards,

Dave

[jawjaboy]

I was shootin' for 4.6 grs. of TG, the .40 cavity gave me that consistently ~.1 gr.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Ok, if I am doing the calculation for WMD right, I'll need about .30 CC cavity for 3.5 grains.

Thanks jawjaboy.

Regards,

Dave

[redbear705]

Caution is advised using titegroup in the auto disk dispenser!

Two of my friends and I shoot IDPA together and we all shoot titegroup.......we noticed that some shots were louder then others as well as felt recoil.

We pulled some bullets and found out that the powder was not consistant from round to round. This happened to all three of us at about the same time.


We asked around the other shooters that were using titegroup and they all noticed that when using the auto disk powder dispenser that the charges did not weight up the same all the time.

After alot of experimentation and examination we think we have it figures out.....titegroup will bridge if using too small of a chamber in a disk!

We have since had to make power floor adjustments because we shoot out of 4" barrels 38spl and had to increase powder to make it.....glad we checked with a chrono before going to the state match.

I am not saying that the titegroup or the auto disk powder measure are bad.....but the two together in small grns. will cause a squib at one time or another.

My buddy Gary got really lucky while shooting and had a squib....he stopped just in time! We ended up pulling 600 bullets and re-assembling them.

Good Luck .......JR

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

redbear,

Can you recommend a "ballpark" minimum load for titegroup in the Pro Auto Disk? If 3.5 grains of Titegroup is below that "floor" I certainly don't want to mess with risking bridging or squib loads, especially as I have two other top notch powder measures - a RCBS Uniflow with small cylinder and Hornady LnL powder measure with Micrometer insert available to me.

Thank you,

Dave

[35remington]

Dave, not meaning to highjack a response, but I will give a related issue some going over. To give you a quick first response, I do not consider 3.5 grains Titegroup below the "floor" for accurate measuring. With larger granuled flake powders like Unique and Red Dot or Clays, it is starting to get too low in charge weight, and ~3.0 grains is definitely below what should be used in fixed cavities in the PAD with these type powders. I have had squibs with this combination (flake and PAD). This is not an indictment of the PAD, as other brands of fixed cavity measures will have the same problem. Titegroup is one of the most suitable for light charges, being much smaller granuled, but when you get into .38 special weight charges some other factors might need to be examined. A quirk of the PAD must be examined, as well, but maintenance is required of any device.

I have used the PAD with a great variety of powders, from very fine flake, extruded and ball through longer granuled extruded types intended for rifles.

This has been in static, stand alone mountings (C frame press) through revolving turret usage where it is mounted on a Lee Classic Cast to usage on progressives where it remains stationary but is used above a revolving shellplate, with the usual considerable amount of bumping up and down.

To answer the question about uniformity, the best charge weight uniformity (as I'm sure you already know) is with a stand alone mounting when the only vibration is operation of the measure, and the charging sequence is not interrupted to seat bullets, talk to your girlfriend, watch TV or do anything to vary from exact repeatability. Mounting on top of a moving object like a revolving turret press is inherently more variable, but if done consistently charge weights will still be very uniform if the press is operated uniformly.

If the operator knows what he's doing, running a progressive with the PAD is not a problem, and in a practical sense velocity variations are minimal. No, not as uniform as a stand alone application, but nothing practical is lost, and I'm not willing to load that slowly. The gun and my chronograph really can't tell the diffence. Thus the answer.

Still, bridging is possible with the very large flake powders. Recently I evaluated American Select for just that problem (very clean burning, though, which is why I wanted to use it in the .45 with lighter target loads) as it has a flake size that makes Clays and Unique look small. No problem with charges as small as 3.8 grains, and I'm simply not going to load lighter than that as it won't begin to operate my .45's with standard springs. In a practical sense, it's fine. In a .38 and its lighter charge levels, I wouldn't advise the PAD with coarse flake powders, but small granuled ball and small flake would be fine. (Same applies to my RCBS Little Dandy and Lyman 55). Titegroup would get a thumbs up from me at 3.5 grains in the PAD, as would any fine ball powder.

One more area needs to be addressed, though.

Flip over the PAD and look at the polymer wiper on the bottom of the measure. Make sure there is not powder packed between the wiper and the plastic body of the measure. If this builds up, the wiper will be constricted, and the opening ovate. Excessive friction may also cause ovality of the wiper. This may be as much a cause of bridging as the powder used in conjunction with the cavity size. It is possible for the built up powder to hold the wiper in this position for several charge cycles, possibly resulting in the problem described. Simply clean it out, and if needed (polymer wiper won't hold its shape) use rubber contact cement to reestablish a good bond. You also need to investigate how that powder got there in the first place.

Overtorquing the nuts holding the measure to the metal body, combined with a relatively new measure (the wiper is oversized, bulges out a little and wears in over time) means that the slider cavity disk may "grab" the wiper and move it over, causing the ovate opening, thus constriction, thus bridging. This opening may have powder build up in it due to the deflection (ovality) of the wiper, aggravating the problem. Periodically the jammed powder may dump out, either in the cavity or in the measure when the disk is changed.

To avoid:

Examine your wiper. If there is excess flash (protrusion below the measure body opening, most obvious with newer measures) trim it a little. Don't overdo, because you still want the wiper to wipe off the charges level. Look only for excess, but it still needs to protrude a little to work properly. After many charge cycles, my most used PAD (I have three) has about twenty thousandths protrusion, which is about where you want to be.

Don't death grip overtorque the friction nuts holding the measure down. Just a very light snugging up, and periodically recheck. Problem solved with all ball powders and fine extruded or flake powders. Don't go below about 3.5 grains with coarse flake powders (my experience). Periodically examine the wiper for distortion. With the powder cutoff, this is very easy to do. Once you attend to these items, you will have long and reliable function, and the periodic examination will be a formality as a quality control check. I have loaded many, many rounds with various powders with not a single squib as long as the above is attended to.

The cautions also apply to the size of the adjustable cavity disk-don't go too small with large granuled powders. I have one, but not much use for it that the fixed won't cover, unless for some reason I want an exact charge of powder from a variation in lot numbers.

[redbear705]

Dave......sorry for the delay in a responce......

I cant give you a ball park figure ......we shoot 38spl out of 4" barrels.

All of the data we could find were giving speeds alot faster then what we were getting.

Turns out the data we were using was from a 7 1/2" barrel so naturally the speed would be higher.

After using the chrono we found out we were low(really low) for the velocity needed to make the power floor. So we kept upping the charge till we got the speed we needed.

We also chrono'd s different commercial loads and ALL of them did not meet the speeds needed to make the power floor!


Sorry I cant help with 9mm info and I dont know if you are going for the IDPA power floor or what length barrel you are shooting.....but we do know that titegroup tends to bridge using the smaller cavities......


JR

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

35Remington and Redbear,

Thank you for your answers. I'll definately be using the PAD for 9MM loading. Based on what I've just learned with the .45ACP exercise, I'll probably start with a 3.0 grain load, monitor it for consistency and work up from there.

My objective when I bought this powder was to reduce the grains of powder used for plinker rounds, thereby maximizing the loads I got from a jug of powder. So far, I'm accomplishing that goal.

Regards,

Dave

[Dale53]

Related experience:

I have had so many problems with 700X bridging that I have quit using it. It is a fine, clean burning powder (originally a shotgun powder) but has bridged in shotshell presses (MEC) as well as typical measures like RCBS and Redding. I was so frustated trying to determine WHY this was happening, that I looked at this powder through a low powered microscope. The powder flakes have ruffled edges like old fashioned doilies used on furniture by old ladies when I was a kid. Those ruffled edges apparently "grab" each other and bridge any rather small cavity (the shotshell press had a powder baffle and THAT was a problem).

I also discussed this with a commercial loader friend and he had the same experience. I mentioned this one night at the local indoor range and one of my friends pooh-poohed this, "I've NEVER had a problem with 700X". The very next string he had a bullet stuck in the barrel of his .45ACP. Boy, was his face red!

I am quite partial to ball powders. I still use a number of different powder types but my favorites are mostly ball powders. They pretty much measure like water.

Win 231 is a flattened ball powder but it still measures well. That's my powder of choice for standard pistol loads. My magnum pistol powder of choice is WC 820 (about the smallest grained powder you will find).

FWIW

Dale53

[TAWILDCATT]

I guess I'v been lucky.I never had problem with 700x and Lee measure.I load 38 spec with 2.8 gr/148 gr bullet.45acp with 3.6 gr 700x and 200 gr swc.shoot a S&W mod 52 and 4" mod 10 bomar rib.my 45 are AMT longslide and amt hardball standard springs.I must be very conservative as I try not to complicate loading.