Maybe its just me, but I bet some of those people that don't know as much and have not looked in commonly available resources do know how to spell ballistics. Glass houses people.
We all have different backgrounds and experience levels, but that doesn't give anyone the right to complain about others, nor does it give them the right to act the fool. Before this goes any further, I'm gonna suggest all parties give it a couple days off.
Reloading Data Project - (in retirement)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/
Black Prince,
I hear you and understand where you are coming from. However, If everyone just Googled and went by what they read on the internet, there would be no need for FORUMS, where we can get together as a Community of Like minded people and discuss things. Plus , there is so much Bad information and YouBoob videos of stuff, it makes me want to scream sometimes at what is being posted and nobody waving the BS Flag. Some of it is just downright Dangerous. I have been loading and casting only since about 1974 and we didnt have the internet, so we did read books. My Library is Huge with Books now considered Vintage and valuable.
People now seem to want to be spoon fed information , and I have no problem helping someone until they don't listen or try to argue with you about what you are sharing...It gets old fast.
Some of us , like yourself have spent hours and hours working up loads and testing at the range, and this makes you a valuable resource of information , but I won't find it in a book, it has to come from you and that is the basis of this forum. Teaching and getting others into casting, shooting, and doing everything in a safe manner is why we are here. Not everyone is as smart as the next guy and some of us may talk in tech terms that go over someones head and so we need to keep that in mind sometimes. Not everyone can talk Rocket science or Plasma Physics like you and I might be able to.
FYI , one of the most intelligent guys on this forum is...12 years old !!!
Jim is an amazing young man and we talk a lot in chat, so My point is everyone needs to have the opportunity to learn here on the forum , and having good , informative discussions is the key while respecting that you really do not know who else is reading this forum and looking for information, and you don't know how old they are or what their IQ is...But as a former "Teacher" , Knowledge is Power and the key to our future.
Rich
You Know You Might Be Facing your DOOM , if all you get is a click, Instead of a BOOM !
If God had wanted us to have Plastic gun stocks he would have planted plastic Trees !
Experiments and experience are costly, especially when they aren't informed by the prior efforts of those who have been there already. Tracking down a reference can also be costly...
While I want the books to read, if I'm going to try it I'd rather have a greybeard who has done it already... And that is a really great thing about this forum.
I would love to know if and how duplexing bp might be done safely in a ml so as to reduce fouling, and improve accuracy over shot strings. Can it be done safely with a modern muzzleloader, and might this be another application besides my 6.5'06 for all this milsurp 50 bmg powder I have around? If the smokeless burns out the powder it might be you could mix them (which would be convenient for a front stuffer)? Or won't that work? Does the powder have to be fast?
Best regards,
DrB
Umm... well ... see .... it's like this ...My question (BUT I NEVER ask it because I don't want to piss off anyone) is why in the hell haven't you read the dam book?Well, simply, it's more fun asking real live folks and having a real live chat is all. I used to read books when I was young but not anymore.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
MooseMy point is everyone needs to have the opportunity to learn here on the forum , and having good , informative discussions is the key while respecting that you really do not know who else is reading this forum and looking for information, and you don't know how old they are or what their IQ is...But as a former "Teacher" , Knowledge is Power and the key to our future.
I completely agree with that and thought I said that, or something close to it. At least I was trying to but you did it much better and it's easy to see that you were a good teacher and it is obvious that I am not.
I'm headed to the range on this GREAT Monday morning to test patterns on some BB shotgun loads I loaded yesterday afternoon after church for the turkel birds that are gobbling around here everywhere. I'll have lunch with the usual Monday group off old retired farts and long time shooters who'll be there even if most of them can't spell ballastics and leave our forum perfect typist somewhere to practice his typing.
I hope you get the chance to get out and burn some powder soon up there in the great state of Alaska. I have hunted there and in British Columbia, Canada every year since 1975. I own a hunting camp and trade out hunts with guys in Alaska and Canada and that works out very well for all of us. Alaska has some of the best people I've ever met and hunted with and certainly some of the best large game hunting on the planet.
But our turkey and hog hunting is better down here since they don't have turkel birds or Russian boar/razor backs up there and I'll pick up two guys from Alaska at the Atlanta airport on Thursday for a turkey hunt here. We are going to have a great hunt because I heard five different turkels gobble this morning from the upper deck of my home here in the mountains while I was out there having my coffee waiting for the sun to come up and for the Cardinals to start singing. The hunting is even better at my south Georgia hunting camp where I try to keep year round food plantings for them but the hogs root most of it up. Hog hunting is open here year round and there is no season or limit on them and since the guys from Alaska are going to be here a week, we'll probably hunt some hogs too. I hope we get to kill some because they are getting out of hand down there and causing a lot of damage.
So here's wishing all the best to all of you up there in the land of the midnight sun and to all of you boys on this forum even if you can't type ballastcis.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
everybody involved here... i would like to take this opertunity to opolagize to catkiller45...and all that have suffered with the reading i have started! i went back to my private messages and did find that just as has been pointed out...the pm was from someone else and it wasnt a gig to me in any way from catkiller!
i am embarased to admit to being a bit tired when i read that particular message and mistakenly thought it came from catkiller when in fact it did NOT and i way jumped to the wrong conclussion.
a man must be many things in life and honest and trustworthy is tops and with that said i must absolutly beg for forgivness from all but in particular from catkiller45. I WAS WRONG AND THERE IS NO POINT TRYING TO MAKE ANY EXCUSE...PLEASE FORGIVE ME.
i love this forum and all the eternity's of experience and practical advise and would very much like to stay in attendence here but i must bow to you all and if you say go...ill go... im the one that jumped the wrong way and nobody else is at fault.
Hey Bigted-----It;s all water under the bridge as far I am concerned...Next time spend a little more time reading things over....So get your *** in gear and get to shootin....LMAO...Catkiller
keep on rolling along.no matter what happens just keep rolling
So now that we're over that, how about talking about duplex loading under paper patched boolits some more?
I got a chance to do some testing this weekend with exactly that. I loaded up 20 rounds of 45-70 with the same load - .5cc IMR 4227 (about 6 grains) and 70 grains Goex CTG. Boolits were .442", 400 grains from an Accurate flatnose mould patched with 9# onionskin up to .448".
The first 5 got a .030 card, .125" lubed felt wad, and another card. The second was the same but with 2 felt wads, The third set had a card, 3/8" grease wad, and a card. Lube is Dick Dastardly's Pearl Lube. Fourth set was the same but with a wax paper wad over the powder instead of a card.
Target was at 100 yards, off the bench. What an eye opener! I thought my felt wads were shooting good, but the paper showed otherwise. Groups were about 6 inches, and neither felt wad load shot very good. So on to the lube cookie loads - what an improvement! Loads with 2 cards went into 1 1/2 inches with 4 out of 5 into less than an inch. The wax paper wad loads did about the same. OK, I am a believer! What an improvement. And the best thing? I wiped between strings just to make it fair, but never had to wipe during the strings. Bore stayed clean and all rounds chambered without resistance.
So I guess from now on I use grease cookies in my ammo as I continue to experiment with it. Another good thing is I have never gotten good performance from the CTG powder, and always heavy fouling. As good as this shot and as clean as it was, it looks like I can use that stuff up now and see how the same thing works with good powder!
As good as this shot and as clean as it was, it looks like I can use that stuff up now and see how the same thing works with good powder!
Just dam!!! Sounds like you have been converted to a duplex shooter. Good on you with those results. You are definitely on the right track.
You know, I don't know why somebody around here had not already tried doing that for the past 54 years and told us about it even if they make a typo trying to type ballistics.
It looks like you fellas are doing well with this duplex stuff, so I'm outta here. All the best to all of you. Even those of you who STILL think duplex loading does not work.
Last edited by Black Prince; 04-12-2012 at 05:23 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
I thought duplexing was old hat..
While I don't use BP myself a good friend does and he also uses duplex loads..
I asked him in a e-mail back in the spring of 2010 what loads he was using in his Shiloh Sharps for hunting..
Note while he has been PP quite a bit he hasn't kilt any animal with PP loads..
These are GG bullets, made from roofing lead, with grease cookie and compression....
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:40:10 -0700
Art I am going to start loading for my Ruger #3 in 45-70..
I would like to know or I should say be reminded about the boolits, wt. alloy and speed that you used to shoot the following animals.. I'll fill in what I remember...
1. Your broadside moose.. (2008)
Nice bull, exited, tipped over after two steps
a. NEI 378gr/gc
b. pure lead
c. 1430-50fps
d. 110yds.
2. Bear last spring.. (2009)
End to end on the bear
a. Lee 500gr RN/HP/gc (470grs.)
b. pure lead
c. 1329fps
d. 40yds.
3. Buffalo..Farm Buff 2 or 3 year old..
Ran a bit spraying blood all over the snow..
a. Lee 500gr RN/gc
b. pure lead
c. 1329fps
d. 35yds.
Despite what some may think his Sharps didn't mind shooting gas checked GG over duplex..
I LIKE IT!!! those animules all fell to a duplex load?? very cool man. also i like hearing about the duplex with lube wad. still have some miles on my journey i see. and gg boolits ??...cool. thanks and keep em coming.
Ok - a little off beat but I am still thinking of re-boring a 303 Brit to 375 Brit - 375 Nitro if you will - and while BP was not on the menu it might just be a fun alternative to play with once I go into retirement (or sooner - I'm not there yet). Duplex BP paper patching might be just the ticket. Don't wait up on me getting 'a round tuit'. It's a future project. I still have to build my rifling machine!
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
If you do, make the neck of the cartridge case really long to be able to fit the whole wad stack inside the neck. Only recently did I realize why many of the old English cartridges had such long necks. And even now, though it is not required for smokeless powder, some still do like the 400 H&H.
That's one point with the 375, the neck starts where the shoulder used to be so isn't all that long. Perhaps a slightly modified chamber to give that longer neck or just go for a 40/10mm. I was thinking the 375 would be more than enough recoil for me and still have a reasonable range with plenty of pig/red deer power.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
bigted,Originally Posted by bigted
When he shoots a animal with his Sharps or RB it dies pretty quick and that is why I wanted to know the velocity and alloy he was using so I could duplicate it in my Ruger #3 with smokeless..
I worked up a load using the 378 gr. bullet he used to shoot his moose as I have no interest shooting a 500 grainer out the little #3..
Also I own that mold..
I found a accurate load using 28 grains of 2400 and 50/50 ww/pb annealed..
Haven't had a chance to hunt much with that rifle yet.. (one hr.)
Funny thing, I have been wrapping 325gr and 270gr .452 bullets the last few days to shoot in the #3 and a Marlin GG after re-reading a Ross Seyfried article on the old 450 BPE this winter..
If I can find accurate loads to duplicate the .450 BPE velocity using bullets weighing from 270grs. to 380grs. I'll been done experimenting with the 45-70..
Finally!!!....
Last edited by Nrut; 04-20-2012 at 07:50 PM.
cool man...keep us all...ME...LOL...apraised of your progress. sounds like a express type load which sounds very fun. im bout done with the heavys as well. the 350 to 400 ish boolits feel and seem like they will do the job without the horrible punishment the 500's dish out with just a small bit of help.
read an article recent of the hunting loads from the past and they were mostly 400 neiborhood bullets and some used them to good use at long range as well.
my latest endeavor was to load some of the baco mould,, 500grain .444 inch boolits ahead of the 6 grains imr4227 and 54 grains of 2f express from goex. i just couldnt wrap my mind around how this wrapped boolit of .450 inch could grab the rifling and make accuracy but ive read about them so finally gave them a honest try.
all i can say is WOWWW!!!! those hummers acted in my browning bpcr like they had been waiting to arrive in that chamber for all their life. at 50 yards the 1 hole group that i shot with the longrange browning sights were fanominal to say the least. it is no exageration that for the three 5 shot groups i could cover them with the thumnail of my hand. i mean they drilled in there like they wanted the companionship of the other boolits and thru the same SMALL ragged hole.
now i know 50 yards is no feat but i always shoot at this distance to see if further playing with the combonation is advised. ive shot several loads and boolit types into 1 hole groups before but they all cut the paper on the target and tore out the middle portion of the group being around 1 or 1.5 inch in grouping.......not so with these BACO 500's in .444 inch bare and patched to .450 inch. i am going to do a loading of 50 and redo my origanal experiment to the last detail and see if this is repeatable...if so i have the load...at least for the browning.
duplex loading
I have truly enjoyed this thread. Big ted--you have honor. Yes, I am one who has not fired black powder in a cartridge rifle--YET. I am still working on getting a 45-70 stocked from a piece of American Walnut that was in my friends yard. Forearm and butt-stock. It is a BSA&M Martini-Peabody (sp?) that has a serial #of 381. It has been barreled to 45-70 from a 458 that wasn't the 28 inch that the original person wanted for his rifle. It was cut to 25 inch and re-threaded to 45-70 and installed on the Martini. i hope to have it stocked in 4-6 weeks. Now I have to admit the Duplexing loads sound really right for this rifle. shot alot of black from muzzies and c&b pistols, just not BPCR. whether or not finding the right load for this old girl will be easy or not--it's the journey that counts.
also want to thank Black Prince for joining in. Good info there. hope to hear more from you. At BCPR I have to consider myself a Newbie even though I have been shooting for 62 yrs and reloading for 57. I'm still learning and it's people like ya'll that really help with the esoteric experiences'. Thank you to all. I know this discussion is 2 months old but I just found it and had to comment. God Bless to all.
Goofyoldfart
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."
I have a BSA&M Lee Enfield fitted with looks like a cavalry carbine barrel (it could also be a Lee Speed barrel but the sights are cavalry carbine). It's done a lot of work and shows it in the locking lug recesses which are indented and have burred edges. It's a low pressure gun now - see where I'm going? I might just try some duplex BP loads in it one day. The bore is worn pretty large but it's accurate with PP (within the ranges I can aim it with those horrible original Lee Enfield sights).
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
had a great opertunity today with the 45-120. soninlaw was planting a 1000 gal tank for his septic and want to pilfer it with holes before planting so he invited me for some shooting fun. this tank is at least 3/8ths thru the sides and 1/2 inch on the bottom n top flats. he wanted it full of holes so we took to firing at it...i started with my factory ball ammo thru my 45 auto...just put huge dings in the sides. then he shot a mag thru it with his SKS. then i retrieved my 120 with the .444 inch baco's wrapped with 9 pound onion skin weighing in at 500 grains...distance was a terrifieing 30 feet. at this long distance i was assured of at least some hits so i opened up with the sharps...firing 10 grains 4227 and 90 grains GOEX cartridge. they made a nice walk-thru hole in the facing side and i shot 5 of these...went to the other side to see what happened with the remaining punch and WALLA the holes on the back side were at least 7/8ths inch and maybe an inch in diameted and by the splatter of iron from the holes they were still packing some little bit of power in them after going thru 3/8ths inch first then across 5 feet of open space inside and then busting thru the other side of the 3/8ths iron with authority.
im never far from amazed with the outrageous penetration of these full weight boolits...specially the patched ones that are so fun to shoot.
im presently playing with the lube cookies and they really live up to their name from all i can see and find with my experiments.
as for the honer thing...i mostly think i fail in this dept of living up to my grandads expectations of the word. he was a characture with some long gone experiences in the armed forces area of shooting in the turn of the century last. not long from the black powder era...so his view of the word was a bit more stringent then it stands for now-a-days. but i apreciate the encouragement with your words my friend
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| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
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