duplex patching

[bigted]

im fairly new to patching so im trying many diff things to see where ill settle in at. i really enjoy black powder but have not experimented with the lube cookies that i feel are a need for straight bp loads...however i have experimented with duplex loads. namely using no more or less then 10% smokless...[imr 3031]...grains of which are subtracted from the whole of the powder grains to be used...such as this load;

6 grains imr 3031 along with 54 grains of goex 2f black powder...[total of 60 grains]...this all compressed 1/4 inch in the case for loading a 457125 gubberment boolit sized to .452 then wrapped wet with 9 pound onion skin...[for a total of .458 inch]...sparked with a cci 200 primer...all inside a fired UN-sized remington case...this load obviously is a 100 % density load which i find to be best in my shooting experience.

this load and 9 other combo's with diff grains and boolits and slicks as well as groove boolits sized to the .452 diameters shoot very well so far and the resultant fouling in the barrel is non existant...i mean very clean and requires no swabbing between shots whats so ever.

i guess my question is thusly...has anyone here tryed or experimented with these duplex loads and what was or is your outcome? posted this question on the bp patching site and have had hardly any return comments except that its not 100% blackpowder ...and...why? so thought id post here to find out if i can find others as foolish as myself in these proceedings.

thanks all

[grullaguy]

I have a very curious mind (ask my wife), but I have not yet been tempted to blend black powder and smokeless. In the smokeless reloading world duplex/blended loads are considered a no no.

That said, I have blended smokeless powders in the past to compensate for a lack of a correct powder. Because I have a career background which involved ammunition loading and testing, I knew what the risks and hazards were with the powders I was working with and knew that I could attain a satisfactory end result.

I don't know what you were aiming for by developing a smokeless/bp duplex load. Do you know if you got the results you were looking for?

The reason I ask about your results is that you have mixed two propellants of radically different composition. There are too many variables in burn rate, grain size and compatibility to nail down a predictable result of such experimentation.

With the ratio you used, I imagine you are fairly safe. You are still here to ask the question, so that is a good sign.

[grullaguy]

My apologies. I see that you were working to reduce bp fouling. Congratulations on that.
I am pretty you sure that you have gone where others have feared to tread, and found a fouling solution that works for you.

Now for the years of testing for accelerated bore erosion, pressure spikes etc.

[303Guy]

I have heard of duplex loading but those were with double base pistol or shotgun powders under the BP. I don't recall the objective nor the results. Possibly to overcome the powder burn rate? (Meaning course BP when no fine is available or something). Cleaner burn could have been the objective.

[bigted]

i have done a bunch of research in this endever and followed recipes from others that have plowed in front of me. this is not exactly a first for this kinda loading as some research will attest to. read a few of Mathews books and i think he mentions it several times. to say nothing about the turn of the century target competitions. there are a few things to glean from such loads that result in loads that are not and if any just a bit of added preassure and speed then the regular full black powder loads. my experience shows no ill effects as my goal is not to hop up my loads but to attain blackpowder hunting loads that will allow many shots if need be before the rifle gets so clogged that i couldnt chamber another round in a bad situation. hence the slow burn of the 3031 powder in such a small amount. im not comfy doing so with fast smokeless such as pistol or shotgun powders.

these loads so far have enabled me a very quick reload for as many as i wish to shoot and the cleanup after is a snap...2 spit infested tight patches followed by a 3rd clean dry one to wipe the moisture outta the bore then an oily patch and back on the wall with it.

ive been doing this for the better part of two mounths now and the success not withstanding a good accuracy test is very acceptable. meeting ALL my expectations with abundance.

i just wanted to hear from others that have done the same and compare notes .

[grullaguy]

i have done a bunch of research in this endever and followed recipes from others that have plowed in front of me. this is not exactly a first for this kinda loading as some research will attest to. read a few of Mathews books and i think he mentions it several times. to say nothing about the turn of the century target competitions. there are a few things to glean from such loads that result in loads that are not and if any just a bit of added preassure and speed then the regular full black powder loads. my experience shows no ill effects as my goal is not to hop up my loads but to attain blackpowder hunting loads that will allow many shots if need be before the rifle gets so clogged that i couldnt chamber another round in a bad situation. hence the slow burn of the 3031 powder in such a small amount. im not comfy doing so with fast smokeless such as pistol or shotgun powders.

these loads so far have enabled me a very quick reload for as many as i wish to shoot and the cleanup after is a snap...2 spit infested tight patches followed by a 3rd clean dry one to wipe the moisture outta the bore then an oily patch and back on the wall with it.

ive been doing this for the better part of two mounths now and the success not withstanding a good accuracy test is very acceptable. meeting ALL my expectations with abundance.

i just wanted to hear from others that have done the same and compare notes .

Once again I find out how little I know.
Mathew's book has been mentioned a number of times here, but I have not yet read it. I really should.

I was at the range today with a friend who was shooting black powder paper patched bullets out of his Snider Enfield. I have been introducing him to paper patching, but my knowledge of black powder patching is limited.

[303Guy]

I must confess there is a just a little bit of hankering toward black powder. Now if'n I could get a Lee Medford I might just give black a try under a patched heavy, Actually, is there any reason why it has to be pre Lee Enfield? Does 1896 qualify with an SMLE barrel? I could fit the original sights (I have a few) but the foresight would be a look alike. Pressure would so low that a duplex load is almost mandatory in the Brit. (Remember that they used a compressed black powder pellet that was loaded befor the neck was formed).
See what you gone done! Home made black of course.

[Nobade]

What you are doing is kind of interesting because it straddles the line between our two paper patching rooms here. The smokeless guys are shooting bore diameter bullets patched up to groove diameter. The black powder guys are shooting way under bore diameter bullets patched up to, or just under, bore diameter. You are using smokeless style bullets and shooting them with black, so you get the best of both worlds! My question is are you patching up the nose on that #457125? I would assume not, judging by how much powder you are using. The other thing is, I shoot that same bullet in my Sharps and Trapdoor rifles with straight black powder and no paper - just lubed naked lead and it is very accurate, and with a blow tube I can shoot all day without wiping. I am not sure the paper patching is doing much for you there. Now if you want to size that bullet down to .442-.443 and patch it back up to .449" and shoot it over about 80gr. of black then you'll start to see why paper patching and black powder work together.

BTW, I just loaded up some duplex smokeless/black loads this weekend to try myself. I just wish my bullet mould were a little smaller, it throws .444 bullets so I have to size the patched bullet to .449" to get it to chamber. It's Tom's 400gr. flatnose, I haven't had it work very well yet but I keep trying. I am hoping the duplex bit will raise pressures enough to get it to shoot better, we'll see. It does work great in the muzzle loader but so far not too well in the cartridge gun. I think the bullet needs to be heavier and a little smaller.

[bigted]

nobade...no i didnt patch the nose on the 457125. i sized the drive bands to .452 and patched it back to .4585 but it leaded the bore very badly and i suspect that the .449 nose rode the rifling too hard when obturated with my bp charge anfd then tore the patch and compounded the matter. i thought about it for awhile then went out and patched the whole boolit to the nose but then as you guessed the depth it needed to be seated made it a no go in the short 45 2.1 case.

however i also sized down a 457643 boolit weighing 420 grains and patched it after sizing it to the .452 dia. this boolit shoots very well in my marlin with the coresponding crimp on the forward crimp band...this left the paper patch in tact under the crimp on the drive bands. i used the 60 grain load under this boolit it being 6 grains imr 3031 and 54 grains goex 2f powders. i couldnt ask for a cleaner load and in my short range here at the house it stays inside a 1 hole group for 5 shots...somewhere in the 35 yard range...definetly not any accuracy proof but its a start.

also i have a baco .444 mould that throws purrrfect boolits. this requires me to size my cases to fit the ,450 dia patched diameter . this shoots very well when loaded with the above load and seems to obturate well in my winchester hunter...again with no lube whatsoever

my objective here was and is to find a boolit/powder combo for hunting and fast repeat shots without the need for any lube or blowing or wiping between shots. ive found this and now all that i need is to continue with my experiments so when i get to go to an open range ill have a few loads and combo's to try at 1 and 200 yards for hunting type accuracy...my requirements are that a load will always in any condition pull into 2 inches at 100 and 4 inches at 200 yards. the way these shoot and stay clean ill be very surprised if a few dont fall into this catagory.

as for the straight bp behind the paper patched i do plan to go that route after i gain my needs for the duplex first. i do have fun with my straight bp loads and will never stop doing them but this duplex has me by the boo boo rite now...and the paper patch is just pudding on the cake.

[Catch]

An interesting thread. Years ago I used to shoot a trapdoor Springfield and loaded it with 4 grains of Unique against the primer and 55 to 60 grains of Black under a 400 gr. round nose bullet. I was just starting then and the idea at the time was to get a better start on the black powder ignition or thats what we thought. My loading tools then were primitive and the trap door was the seating tool. We shot round balls up the Yadkin river and watched them skip 50 times or more with a well reduced load of straight Black. That was 50 years ago. I have sure had alot of fun with this stuff. ...........Catch

[catkiller45]

No really understanding this thing about the duplex loads,I admit.
But it just seems to me that if it shoots cleaner,it should be
creating more power to the black powder as well.So if it is then
why can't a bore diameter bullet be used and not a groove
diameter bullet..
Or am I missing something here all together? If I thought it
would work,I would give it a try myself.But as I mentioned
all my patched bullets are of the bore diameter..I would like to
hear more about this...Has anyone tried the bore size bullets
and if so what was the results?

[Nobade]

Yes, I have. I bought a 400gr. .443" paper patch mould from Accurate, for my muzzle loader. I also tried it in my 45-70 some without very good results. Later I discovered that two lubricated felt wads would work to get better accuracy from other PP bullets in that rifle, so I tried the 400s again. I loaded 5gr. IMR 4227, then 80gr. Diamondback FFg with a drop tube. Compressed it with a compression die and a .030" card wad, then two 1/8" felt wads lubed with Gatofeo #1 and another card wad. Hand seated the PP bullets about .100" into the case. (I need to shorten my taper crimp die, it isn't tight enough to size the cases enough to hold the bullets)

Fired at hanging steel at 200 yards I managed 10 shots without wiping or blow tubing. All shots hit the gong, (12 inch square) and responded to wind calls. I should have shot slower as the barrel got so hot I could barely see the sights but I wanted to go for a worst case deal. It works. I suspect in addition to cleaning up the fouling the smokeless maybe gave it enough extra pressure to really bump up the bullets properly and really improved the accuracy. I need to shoot those more, and am waiting for a new sizer from Buckshot to come in so I can size them to .442" first instead of sizing after patching. I want finished bullets to be .448" - .449" so they will chamber without resistance.

[bigted]

catkiller...what is happening with the duplex loads is...[this from my feeble reassoning only] ...the load when fired explodes with black powder style hammering to the base of the boolit which hammers it into an obturated state that filles the chamber/bore /rifling. then after the initial explosion the power developes to speed the boolit down the barrel...the smokless charge that is at the base of all this is still burning and it devours the fouling as it continues it burn...[not an explosive like black powder]...as it burns the dreaded fouling it also enables the bp charge to develope a bit more power/velocity as well and in addition to the plain bp charge.

so in answer to your other question...will the patched to just under bore work with this style of 'duplex' loading...i see no reasson why not. it is still the explosive start with the bp that obturates the boolit to fill out to whatever is the outside containg field.

my main reasson for experimenting with this style of loading is two fold. first off i want/need a load for bp that i can expect to be able to reload in a hurry when the need arises. secondly...i have read about this kind of loading and everytime i see print about this duplex loading i also see the resultant controversy in the arguements that accompany the written post. so as i am not exactly a conformist i readilly proceed with the needed experiments to see for myself if this is viable for me and not taking anybodys word for it.

i read of different loads and i reasson thru the prudence of safety well before i resume my experiments so i can remain here long enough to promote such as this for the pertrudance and astonishment of some and therefore my job is well done...other then that i find that the duplex is just down rite fun to play with. it gives me the huge satisfaction of sparks and smoke that i love without the imense fouling that has to be dealt with in any other respect of bp shooting.

so in a long winded eulogy on the duplex loading...good luck with yours and report back if it pleases you to do so with your results...i for one would find it interesting on your particular results and progress.

i also find that the standing in both worlds is great fun. i do get the goods from both disiplines with the benefits from both the smokless and blackpowder styles of powder. i load the old fassioned way that pleases me and still get the fouling control that ive been looking for. now ill never give up my bp only loading and shooting. nor am i about to stop my smokless powder loadings either...jus now i have a means to mix the two...[[CAREFULLY AND SAFELY]]...for the fun and excitement.

try it...ya might like it!

*

[catkiller45]

I tried my first ever smokeless load in my 45-70 with a 535 grain
Postell bullet of unknow alloy...I used 27 grains of accurate 5744..
Bullet lubed and sized at .459 inch...Again ,I only tried this load at 100
yards...I use surprised...4 out of 7 in one ragged hole...I was tatally
impressed with it and night try it again...I just wish I knew the alloy
of these bullets..But once they are gone thats it...I need to get a bullet
of a consistent alloy or my shooting,loading will be a question as to the
bullet..I am guessing that it is a hard alloy..


Now to ask you fellows a question about this duplex,if I may....
When you are done shooting do you need to wash the cases like with
straight black powder..And if your using the duplex load,are you using
a grease cookie? If not do you find it better to wipe between shot or
are you find this not needed as well....Please splain more to this
old bullet riddled body of an old bastard.....

[Nobade]

I tried my first ever smokeless load in my 45-70 with a 535 grain
Postell bullet of unknow alloy...I used 27 grains of accurate 5744..
Bullet lubed and sized at .459 inch...Again ,I only tried this load at 100
yards...I use surprised...4 out of 7 in one ragged hole...I was tatally
impressed with it and night try it again...I just wish I knew the alloy
of these bullets..But once they are gone thats it...I need to get a bullet
of a consistent alloy or my shooting,loading will be a question as to the
bullet..I am guessing that it is a hard alloy..


Now to ask you fellows a question about this duplex,if I may....
When you are done shooting do you need to wash the cases like with
straight black powder..And if your using the duplex load,are you using
a grease cookie? If not do you find it better to wipe between shot or
are you find this not needed as well....Please splain more to this
old bullet riddled body of an old bastard.....

If you're going to shoot smokeless and boolits patched to the throat, just use wheelweight metal air cooled. It works great and is cheap.

As for the wiping, see my post above.

[geargnasher]

Reloder 7 works great in my .45/90 Shiloh Sharps with the 535 Lyman boolit made of air-cooled wheel weights sized to .452", patched to .460" with two wraps of wet notebook paper, final sized to .459" and enough BPI filler to compress the powder. I'm using around 40 grains of powder.

Gear

[catkiller45]

Still did not answer my question about wether you have to
can the cases after using duplex loads...

[bigted]

yes you have to wash the cases. i do as i want to use my cases for as long as possible. i also scrub the primer hole with a small primer hole brush . the barrel wiping is something you will have to ponder and experiment with. im still doing the same myself. the thing is with these duplex loads is to have at it and find out for yourself in your rifle what works and dont. i can shoot 10 without wiping and they still chamber fine and the accuracy at my short range is kept at the 1 raged hole in three of my rifles im playing with. the boolit that shows the most promise is the rcbs mould 45-500pp with the hollow base to tuck the paper end into...the metal is from a feller here that sells ingots thru the mail...[muddycreeksam]... i shoot 105 grains of goex cartridge with 9 grains of imr 3031 in my 45-120. i shoot 54 grains of goex 2f ahead of 6 grains of the same imr 3031 in my 45-70's. same boolit. the boolit casts roughly .452 and i run them thru my .452 lee sizer to smooth the bearing surface and ensure them to be round.

i want to load around 50 shells to see for sure whether they will continue to chamber and group like the 10 do. my whole purpose was to find a blackpowder load that would shoot in hunting fields and be able to chamber and hit what i shoot at at the normal hunting range and i think ive found this particular combo. now for the accuracy tests at a bit longer range to see if they will hold together. i get fine paper shreds 4 to5 feet in front of the muzzle and find the felt wads around 30 feet from the muzzle. i feel im on the rite track with this duplex stuff.

jump in catkiller...see where it takes you. the powders that ive heard of using behind the black are...rl-7...imr 3031...imr 4227...5744 to name a few. id hesitate to use the fast pistol powders tho as im not sure whether they would increase the preassure to too much...also be assured to be shooting these in a good sturdy tight rifle...not an origanal for my tastes...might just be ok but id hate to ruin a good origanal gun with something that has the least bit of extra preassure.

have a blast!!!
*

[badgeredd]

bigted,

There used to be a fellow here on the forum that used a bit of fast pistol powder under a BP load. On his information, I loaded some 40-65 loads with 5 grains of Unique under 60 grains of BP. It definitely helped to nearly eliminate foulings. I was amazed at the difference in clean up! I didn't notice any problem with pressures either since the compressed BP held the Unigue in place. I didn't try this with paper patched boolits, but now I think I'll have to give that a whirl too. Sure miss Black Prince!

Edd

[bigted]

badger...srry for the loss of a friend.

i would be interested in your results with this duplex thing. i would read a few articles from the old guys before commencing with this. i read a bunch to keep myself in the saftey zone as i recognize the possibilitys of going overboard with the smokless portions. i stay with the 10% smokless in my 45-70's and until i get more concrete results... ill not publish my experiments with my 45-120 till i get comfortable with the safety and prudence of them.

but to say im having a ball with all this is an understatement. my barrels come clean very fast and the paper really polish's them to a high sheen taking out the tool marks succesfully as well. what fun this paperpatching is with or without the duplex thing...but im really impressed with these duplex loads so far.