accuracy from a new Win 45-70, expecting too much?

[Don McDowell]

Swampy that's not the same story you've been telling the fellers over on 24 hr......

[XTR]

I've owned a huge pile of .45-70s and I've never owned one that wouldn't shoot MOA. Some of mine shoot 1/2 MOA with cast boolits. How does it shoot with Remington 405 grain factory ammo?

I've read a lot of accuracy claims on the web. To read it you'd think a GAP 308 shoots one hole groups by itself, no glass required, or claims like yours of accuracy from 45-70s. I've also decided that I own the slowest barrels ever produced by either Rock Creek or Krieger because with 175s and 185s my 30" barrel shoots slower than what I read people claiming to get with 20" tubes.

Then I get people who post more realistic answers like some of the people who have posted on this thread to say that 2MOA is pretty good for a straight sided case.


At this point my answer is post up the targets. If you don't have the paper it never happened.

[Swampman]

Swampy that's not the same story you've been telling the fellers over on 24 hr......

I'm not sure what you're talking about. My .45-70s are all highly accurate. In fact is almost impossible to find a load that won't shoot well in a .45-70. My buddy has a new Winchester 1885 in .45-70 and it's a tack driver.

[XTR]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. My .45-70s are all highly accurate. In fact is almost impossible to find a load that won't shoot well in a .45-70. My buddy has a new Winchester 1885 in .45-70 and it's a tack driver.

Post the 100 yard groups.

[Swampman]

My 1st 3 shots at 100 yards using 30 grains of IMR-4198 and a 405 grain Georgia Arms cast bullet. Unique and the 340 grain Lee bullet shoots just as well. This kind of accuracy has been typical of every .45-70 I've ever owned. I wouldn't own a 2 MOA rifle for long.

[XTR]

Please don't take this as slinging at you, but 3 shot groups are pretty meaningless, and one buy itself is even more so. Put three 5 shot groups on the same page and we're talking about consistent accuracy.

Secondly it's been hashed to death all over this thread that I am trying to get more MV than that load. Loading 30 grains of 4198 is in the 1100FPS range. It's a lower load than anything listed in the Lyman manual for any version of the 45-70. I'm looking for 1600FPS in a 405.

Want to see why, go out and with out making any adjustments to your scope put that same load on paper at 200 yards.

My 300gn J bullets currently chrono at 2000 to 2150 depending on the load.


What I have learned and is that the info in this thread is correct that you can't sling grease grove cast boolits faster than about 1200.

[Swampman]

In my Lyman manual it's a hotter than any Trapdoor load listed. Of course mine is from the 1970s. 30gr of IMR-4198 will give 1300, +/- fps with 405gr bullets and pressures at 20,000 psi or so. Since I only shoot one shot while hunting, three shot groups seem like plenty to me. Stick with jackets if you're gonna make a .458 Winchester out of it.

[XTR]

The 49th edition Lyman shows a minimum load for the 1873 Springfield of 31.5gn of IMR 4198 makes 1312 and 12400 CUP

Stick with jackets if you're gonna make a .458 Winchester out of it.

That's the second reference to the 458 win from someone on this thread, and it's a preposterous comparison when you look at what I'm trying to accomplish. A 458 typically pushes heavier bullets nearly double the muzzle energy.




Again, I challenge you to go put that load on paper at 100 and at 200 in consecutive shots w/i dialing your scope. In case you've never looked it has nearly 3 feet of drop. Maybe hunting in the palmettos in Fla you don't need to shoot 200 yards, but I have no use for a rifle that I can't make a holdover to 200 yards with out a ladder or a vernier.

[Swampman]

Well whatever you do nothing will beat IMR-4198 for accuracy. I'd start low and keep moving up until accuracy falls off. You have to feed a firearm what it likes. The .45-70 has a rainbow trajectory no matter how fast you push it. You just have to learn how to hit with it. I'm only interested in best accuracy myself. Good Luck!

[XTR]

So I finally got my copy of "40 years with the .45-70" and read thru it.

All I have to say is that the folks here who keep saying to load to 1100fps would burn Mr. Matthews as a heretic. He seriously pushed his loads. Seems if it wasn't 2000FPS or better he wasn't happy, and in a Ruger #3 the man must have a steel shoulder.

Oh and his accuracy looks about like has been described, about 1.5 to 2 MOA at 100 yards.

I think I'm going to be happy with my PP boolits. I've looked at 405s and now I;m loading up some patched 350s, if I can get them to work at 1800 plus or minus 25 I'll have about a perfect load.

[Swampman]

I love Mr. Matthews book and read it often. I see no point in shooting loads as hot as the ones he used here in North America. Dead is dead....

[rbertalotto]

What I have learned and is that the info in this thread is correct that you can't sling grease grove cast boolits faster than about 1200.

Huh? Better tell my 1886 Winchester and my 1895 Marlin this. My gas checked, Ranch Dog, 425 grain bullets are running at 1600 fps with sub 2" groups with tang sight (multiple 5 shot groups at 100 yds) And 4198 or RL7 are my powders of choice.

[725]

rbertalotto -

Interested in if you use a filler with the 4198? My concerns are over the possibility of ringing the chamber. Thoughts?

[9.3X62AL]

Late to this party.

Ruger #1 owner here, 45-70. With loads it likes at 100 yards it is an honest 1.5" rifle, 10 shots. The cold/clean barrel shot is within that group, too. Considering the size of game to be taken with the combination (deer and larger, to 150 yards), 1.5 MOA is overkill. The 45-70 isn't a varmint round.

Just keeping it real.

[bigted]

just an encouraging thought...those paperpatch are gonna ruin you sir!!! they will take your will to live anyplace but behind the buttstock of your rifle. they are GREAT in my humble opinion. yes they will take some tinkering but with them and the rite combo you just might find what your looking for. dosnt matter whether shooting blackpowder or smokless i get goo to great results with the "patch to groove" diameter boolits and slicks will do better in my opinion but for hunting my 457643 420 grain lymans sized down to .452 and patched back up to .4585 are doing well with either my duplex loads or with the smokless loads.

as Don suggested tho...they can give fits till the rite combo is reached but they will allow the upper velocity loads that you wish for and will do it without any messy lube to deal with.

by the time i have them casted and inspected for good boolits...i weigh them and keep them in within 1 grain groups...then i run em thru my .452 lee die to ensure purfect roundness...then i wrap em with 9 pound onion skin from baco wet and allow em to dry for 12+ hours or just throw em in the oven that has been pre-heated to 180 degrees then shut off the oven and put em in for 1/2 hour and presto...next i meassure them to ensure they are all going into the same range of my self imposed .0005 inch for consistancy...by the time i load em they are very friendly with me and each responds to the kind names i give em...ok nough of the goofys...they take a bit longer to mess with but it is worth it to me with the poof of scattered confetti out the front end when the shot goes off.

so what i end up with is boolits that weigh within a grain of each other...thats + 5 tenths and - 5 tenths. boolits that are perfectly round. and the end meassurement in diameter is within .0005 inch of each other. i use 3031 and rl-7 for my smokless loads and cartridge from goex for my duplex loads. these can be gentle on you or rough...its all up to how much you want/can tollerate in the recoil dept.

good luck with your patchin and there is a good posting on either the blackpowder patchin place here or what i recomend is for you to go to the smokless patchin threads as there is a bunch of good//meduim///bad advise there but will get you over the hump if ya gets stuck along the way. the smokless is going to be more what your looking for im bettin and there is bunchs of threads up there for a good read for about as many hours as your eyes can stand.

[XTR]

The 45-70 isn't a varmint round.

Just keeping it real.

As a funny aside, my hunting partner shot a 'yote through the top of the head from his deer stand with a 450 Marlin. He died.

[bigted]

LOL...who died...the coyote or your partner???

[Shooter]

Why do you people keep hurting yourself?
Velocity isn't everything.

[XTR]

Went and sent some PP 350s and some GC 340s into paper this afternoon.

All the loads were in the 1750 to 1850 FPS range. Shooting over 40.0 to 40.6 gn of IMR4198

I really need to figure out what is causing my horizontal distribution. I had one 5 shot group with my PP 350s that put the first shot 3 inches left, then 3 shots all touching inside of one of the 1" grids on the target then the last shot went 2.5 inches right, but none of it has more than 1.5 inches of vertical. I'm pretty certain that the load is MOA accurate, but my form, or the hold on the rest or something is not right. Sometimes it is the first shot, sometimes it's the 3rd, there is no rhyme or reason. I've moved around while looking through the scope, breathing won't move it that far, I've got a good NPA. I can close my eyes for 5 seconds and I'm still on target when I open them. Maybe it's the angle of my shoulder behind the rifle at the bench.


I got one GC group that was about a 2.5 inch oval so that's actually an improvement over some of my trips. Oh, and getting a Magnum plus recoil pad was a good idea.

[bearcove]

I thought I wrote this part somewhere.

This is a hunting rifle.

Got this far and stopped. (half way down page #2)

He's doing 2"@100 yards. With a carbine length barrel 24". ITS a 45-70.

What are you hunting prarrie dogs?