accuracy from a new Win 45-70, expecting too much?

[Chill Wills]

XTR, You might have told us what the reason was and I got bogged down somewhere pursing.
So if this is a personal thing between you and the rifle, I get it. A problem to be solved. I like to make every rifle I own as accurate as I can too.
"only accurate rifles are interesting"

I shoot in the Oak Ridge Long-range Muzzle Loader match when I can get there. Great place except for shooting 1000 in the morning when the sun is out! TN is very green com paired to the aired South West = ranges are dry and dusty for the most part.
My long time hunting pard is from Oak Ridge, they owned Guncraft Sports.

Back to the topic, You will likely find 1.5moa with a little work and 1.25moa too. A true moa singleshot sporter on demand is the rare rifle in my experence.

Schuetzen Bench rest is a singleshot game and few Schuetzen rifles of riflemen choose 45-70. That said, it can be increaablly accurate but maybe all kinds of load work-up and bench work will need be done. Get a copy of Charlie Dell's book is a good place to start. Lots of other books frame the challenge too.

Enough for now, all the best,

[Chill Wills]

Forgot,
To see what the rifle will do, not your loads to date;
Try a 500-550 grn bullet with a nose that rides the lands. push it about 1150-1300 with 4759 or 5744 or a load of Swiss powder

[XTR]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm happy to know what the real world numbers probably are. If I can get this to 2 or under I'll be happy with it for 200 - 250 yard hunting.

BTW, That 308 that I'm re-barreling came from Guncraft about 10 or 12 years ago. It's not shot out I've just decided that I don't need three 308s and it's the only one with an OEM barrel on it today.

There are a couple of guys that I see at the bench rest range pretty regularly that do the Schuetzen thing, I think they are both shooting 32s. Very old actions with new barrels. Bullet seaters and cork plugs for the one brass case that they keep re-filling.

[Moondawg]

I have shot a little F Class in the past and shot benchrest for years. To start with comparing a single shot rifle with a external hammer shooting a blackpowder round that is almost a 150 years old, with a modern bolt action target rifle shooting smokeless powder bottle necked cartridges goes beyond apples to oranges. I noted that you did not mention trying black powder in your 45 70. Have you tried working up BP loads? Look at what the guys winning sillywet matchs and NRA long range matches are shooting. They are shooting and winning with BP loads and 500+ gr lead-tin alloy cast boolits. They are not driving these boolits at high speed. Most are somewhere in the 1200 -1300 fps range, maybe a little more. BPCR shooting is a whole different ball of wax from modern cartridges in a bolt gun. What works for one doesn't always work for the other.

[canyon-ghost]

Okay, you want to think it over. I'm not your psychologist, not your shooting instructor.
You say you have calipers (all the machinists ran screaming from the room). So, when you seat a bullet, where the action closes without binding or engraving, what does your AOL of cartridge measure? Just tap it with the seating die enough to get a measurement. You can color it with Sharpie or magic marker and see it's not too tight. How much too little throat does the rifle have? How short is it?

You won't ram a cast bullet into the rifling and make it shoot. You won't push it too fast and make it group closer, it will just spread out farther.

You won't shoot jacketed with the associated copper fouling and mix it with lead bullets - the lead and lube will turn into a mess that clings to the copper. It's a lot of work to relieve it of ALL the copper fouling.

Ron

[XTR]

I have shot a little F Class in the past and shot benchrest for years. To start with comparing a single shot rifle with a external hammer shooting a blackpowder round that is almost a 150 years old, with a modern bolt action target rifle shooting smokeless powder bottle necked cartridges goes beyond apples to oranges. I noted that you did not mention trying black powder in your 45 70. Have you tried working up BP loads? Look at what the guys winning sillywet matchs and NRA long range matches are shooting. They are shooting and winning with BP loads and 500+ gr lead-tin alloy cast boolits. They are not driving these boolits at high speed. Most are somewhere in the 1200 -1300 fps range, maybe a little more. BPCR shooting is a whole different ball of wax from modern cartridges in a bolt gun. What works for one doesn't always work for the other.

I think you missed some of the important points in this thread.



1. I was never comparing the two cartridges, the point of showing the 308 data was more to validate that I actually have a modicum of skill both in shooting and reloading. Like I wrote somewhere else in here, I see lots of board warriors post about "bug holes" but never see the paper. I don't necessarily know exactly what it takes to get there with a 45-70, but I can with others.

2. This is a hunting rifle. This is not a target rifle. I have no desire to shoot BP, the cleaning on my muzzle loader is enough to reinforce that. I posted quite clearly that I was looking for a load that will give me ~2100 from a 300 to 350 or ~1600 from a 405. That 350 load gives me a 1.5 mil drop at 200 yards and 2.5 mils at 250 yards from a 100 yard zero. That makes for accurate hold overs and accurate shot placement if I can get it to work. It is my expectation that I could find a node somewhere between 2000 and 2200 for a 300 to 350 class bullet.


3. I have tried to be very clear that I do not expect the accuracy from my 45-70 that I get from my modern chamberings; however, there are responses in this thread like:

Has anyone else done well with cast boolits? Beyond your wildest dreams in the 45-70. As have others on this forum who have learned how.

Brother I have some pretty wild dreams, and when you post that right next to a picture with sub .25 MOA groups it might just lead one to the erroneous conclusion that that could be achieved with the rifle in question, and I think that may be the conclusion you drew. (I however did not)

[canyon-ghost]

And, here's a single shot with rifle scope, in a blackpowder cartridge.

That's a 32-20 WCF with lead bullet, a holy terror offhand on the silhouette range, goodnuf??

[giz189]

They are about .001 over the bullets being fired. I'm running .458s and .459s, the inside looks to be .460

XTR, you might try a .460 dia. boolit, according to the size of your measured fired case. Also, some don't like it and some do, you might try a dacron filler with the powder you chose to load with. Good Luck!!

[canyon-ghost]

I was toying with the thought of bullet design, maybe a SWC would go into a chamber that a straight hollowpoint won't. Some SWCs don't have the ogive next to the chamber wall to need the same amount of room (sort of like the spire point reaching further into the chamber).

[EDG]

Shooting a 45-70, or other low velocity rifle with similar significant recoil, requires a different testing technique off a benchrest. Learn to to hold the forend instead of shooting it one handed. Holding the forend firmly will reduce the barrel's movement during recoil. I am right handed and I hold the forend down two different ways.
One way is to put my hand on the front bag with the rifle on top with a grip similar to off hand. The other grip, that I use more often, is to turn my right hand so the back of it is toward me and my thumb is on the right side of the forend. I place the base of my palm against the sand bag. Grip firmly to control the forend when the rifle is fired. Do not lean on the but stock with your face. Touch it with only a light pressure from your cheek. If you use your face to hold the rifle down you will cause the whole thing to bend slightly. You will never hold it down consistently with your face.
These rifles do not behave exactly like a high velocity bolt gun. It may take you several years to learn the difference. I generally find the best accuracy with heavier cast bullets at low velocity but they produce a rainbow trajectory and a lot of recoil. The BPCR guys can provide clues to follow with these rifles. The same bulets work well with smokeless but you have to use the right smokeless loaded to the right velocities.
Look for your best loads to use 4759, 4227 and 5744 on the fast end to 3031 on the slow end. Jacketed bullets can go fast and gas checked bullets will go faser than plain base bullets. All of them will go fast enough to have fun. Make sure the bullet is .001 to .003 large than the groove diameter. Use them as cast if you have too.

[NSB]

Some words posted by EDG I totally agree with: Best accuracy has been with slower, heavier bullets. I have found that with my Sharps the most accurate loads are at the low end of the spectrum. When hunting with this gun, from an elevated platform, I use a range finder to get an accurate reading to the game animal (deer in my case) and adjust for the rainbow trajectory. I think it's better to do this than to get in a mind set that I have to have higher velocity. I put the emphasis on accuracy rather than speed and adjust accordingly. Last year I harvested two deer with the gun and the trajectory didn't seem to keep them from dropping right where they stood or very close to where they were standing. As per the original post though, I'm still working on getting my High Wall to that point. Got the jacketed down OK but the cast are still a work in progress.

[bigted]

might be time to do a search in history with the 45-70 cartridge to put it in perspective. it came about after the 50-70 and that directly from the springfield muzzle loaders. this will never get you where you want it to. things its not follow;

1- not a magnum in any sence of the word...[even tho ruger does build a rifle that will withstand the preassure].

2- expectation of accuracy over 1400 fps is going to cost dearly when getting this kind of velocity from a straight cartridge designed for black powder.

3- not filling the case with powder is sometimes a bad mistake when going for longrange accuracy.

4- without slugging YOUR barrel will never give you the details you need for accurate shooting with cast boolits.

5- when you throw out the origanal loads that this 45-2.1 was designed for with accuracy expected then your road is filled with dissapointment...such as trying the paper patch as sharps loaded them...there again without your particular barrel meassurments your still in the dark.

6- i doubt that the shallow groove rifling in your rifle will ever give you the velocity/accuracy you crave.

ive got a traditional hunter and it does well...[1.5 inch 5 shot groups as for hunting]...with the jacketed 405 remingtons when i run them at around 1300 fps. this is with a 6 to 18x leoplod scope installed and my pet rl-7 load with filler. however my rifle has very shallow grooves...[.0025 deep]...and as such i believe...[just my thinking here] ...that the cast boolits skip a bit when run as fast as you describe your desire for them.

all in all i wish you good luck with your trial with this short barrel light barreled 45-70. i hope that the accuracy gods smile on you for your efforts and that you and this fine rifle will come to terms with each other.

oh and if nobody has welcomed you then here is my hand in welcome to a very fun forum with outstanding members that have and will consistantly give up their knowledge for no more then the asking.

WELCOME ABOARD

[XTR]

Thanks for all the input. I think that I understand now what I can expect from this rifle. The answer to my initial question was Yes, expecting 1MOA might be more than it could deliver, but I should be able to get to 2 MOA or a bit better with the right load development.

[XTR]

might be time to do a search in history with the 45-70 cartridge to put it in perspective. it came about after the 50-70 and that directly from the springfield muzzle loaders. this will never get you where you want it to. things its not follow;

...

2- expectation of accuracy over 1400 fps is going to cost dearly when getting this kind of velocity from a straight cartridge designed for black powder.

Noted, that's something I did not know, does this apply to cast only or jacketed bullets too?

3- not filling the case with powder is sometimes a bad mistake when going for longrange accuracy.

Also a bad mistake if you get a flashover/KABOOM in any reload. I try to pick powders that fill cases.

4- without slugging YOUR barrel will never give you the details you need for accurate shooting with cast boolits.

5- when you throw out the origanal loads that this 45-2.1 was designed for with accuracy expected then your road is filled with dissapointment...such as trying the paper patch as sharps loaded them...there again without your particular barrel meassurments your still in the dark.

6- i doubt that the shallow groove rifling in your rifle will ever give you the velocity/accuracy you crave.

Again, thank you. This is not the impression that you get when you read people talking about the accuracy of their rifles, though I had begun to suspect as much. Cast is something that I'd like to do only in that it may allow me to shoot more for the same $$. (I've done this long enough to know you don't save money, you just shoot more)

ive got a traditional hunter and it does well...[1.5 inch 5 shot groups as for hunting]...with the jacketed 405 remingtons when i run them at around 1300 fps. this is with a 6 to 18x leoplod scope installed and my pet rl-7 load with filler. however my rifle has very shallow grooves...[.0025 deep]...and as such i believe...[just my thinking here] ...that the cast boolits skip a bit when run as fast as you describe your desire for them.

all in all i wish you good luck with your trial with this short barrel light barreled 45-70. i hope that the accuracy gods smile on you for your efforts and that you and this fine rifle will come to terms with each other.

oh and if nobody has welcomed you then here is my hand in welcome to a very fun forum with outstanding members that have and will consistantly give up their knowledge for no more then the asking.

WELCOME ABOARD

All good information to have. I've got a better understanding of what my rifle may be capable of now.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for all the input. I think that I understand now what I can expect from this rifle. The answer to my initial question was Yes, expecting 1MOA might be more than it could deliver, but I should be able to get to 2 MOA or a bit better with the right load development.

With the right load I believe that you ought to be able to do better than 2moa. I used to shoot a lot of smokeless in .45-70 using jacketed bullets. My rifles generally liked the Hornady 350gr round nose. My load was just a hair over Hodgdon's starting load for lever guns using IMR 3031. It will be in your desired velocity range with that barrel length I believe. I rarely shoot jacketed and smokeless these days as I've fallen for the BPCR game. With cast bullets and smokeless I've found that slower is often better. A 405gr gas checked bullet with 25gr of SR 4759 shoots quite well in all of my .45-70's. For higher speeds, the same bullet with 46 to 47gr of Reloder7 seemed to produce good accuracy. That's a pretty stout load. More than I'd want to shoot through my Marlins but fine for your 1885. I also have a pair of Miroku 1885s. The twist rate on the non-bpcr models is 1-20. Mine does not shoot long bullets worth beans. I stick with the 405gr gas checked bullet.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

I also have a pair of Miroku 1885s. The twist rate on the non-bpcr models is 1-20. Mine does not shoot long bullets worth beans. I stick with the 405gr gas checked bullet. Chris.

Gunlaker, you make a good point. If, and I assume you are correct, XTR's rifle is twisted 1 in 20" like the old Creedmoor rifles of 1874, He may or may not have the very best accuracy with the heavy weights. BUT, I still think a 500gr Government Round Nose or Lyman Postell that rides the lands could be made to shoot 1 moa - 2moa with out going nuts with load development.
As you likely know, the old dead guys shot 550PP bullets to 1000ys with the twenty twist.
XTR is not ready to join the dark side where the fun really starts, so either SR-4759 or AA-5744 in charges somewhere between 22 and 25 grains would would show off this rifle's accuracy. The Lyman 457-193 could do it too but I would bet on the Gov. RN for 200y shooting.
Stay warm, spring is coming.

[Don McDowell]

Get ahold of some bullets cast from the Saeco 645 mould, seat them to the driving band, and run those at 1200-1230 fps, and watch things come alive.

[Gunlaker]

Get ahold of some bullets cast from the Saeco 645 mould, seat them to the driving band, and run those at 1200-1230 fps, and watch things come alive.

I might have to pick up one of those moulds one of these days. My Shiloh LRE seems to really like bullets from the 745 mould when cast in 25:1.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris my Shiloh, C Sharps and my wifes hiwall all really get along well with that bullet. I was told about that bullet from a fella at Baker Mt, he really swore by it and by golly he was right. Works great to 1023 yds. Might even go past that, just haven't shot it further as yet...

[geargnasher]

Get all the copper out. Don't shoot copper anymore. Make an impact slug of the chamber and throat. Make your loaded case "neck" diameter have less than .001" clearance to the chamber neck by sizing the boolit accordingly. Use heavier boolits, at least 500-grain, maybe even try the one Don McDowell mentioned (haven't shot that one myself) and quit trying for light boolits at 2K fps. Also make certain the boolit fits the throat. Cast them from a heat-treated low-antimony alloy. Do some research here on duplex powder loading with Reloder 7 as a "kicker". That's about as much as I can tell you to help with smokeless powder accuracy, the rest is in the details of loading technique. If you really want to see what it can do, try real gunpowder!

Gear