Lyman round balls.

[excess650]

<quote>UPDATE: I just finished some test loads in old style AA cases with 18gr Red Dot and F209 primers.

FC1 + .125 20ga card + .680 RB perfect fold crimp
WWAA12F114 + .125 20ga card + .680 RB perfect fold crimp
FS3 + 1/8" felt 20ga filler wad + .680 RB perfect fold crimp
FS3 + 2 12ga OS wads + .680 RB perfect fold crimp

The FC1 and WWAA12F114 (yellow) seem to be just about ideal in the old style (compression formed) AA cases. The 18gr Red Dot was just to start, and I'm sure that more volume of powder can be added and still get a good crimp. I need to see if these will survive going down the smooth and rifled bores before getting to carried away.<quote>

I shot the above loads in both the rifled 870 and 20" smooth double. The FC1 wads didn't survive the ordeal from either barrel. The WWAA12F114 survived, but didn't group well from either. The FS3 sounded hollow and didn't group well either.

Judging from the rifling marks on the yellow Winchester wads, I would say they were too LOOSE for the rifled 870.

[excess650]

I took the 20" double to the range again with RBs in wads. The previous result with .615" RBs wrapped with tablet back produced what I thought was excellent results. Subsequent tests with .680" RBs in various wads has been dismal until today. I loaded (4) rounds with 20gr Unique F209 primers in old WWAA cases and .680 RBs in FS0 wads.

The pictures tell the story. The .615s shot close to point of aim (6 o'clock aim with bead sight). The .680s shot 3" high and 3" right, and 25 yards, both barrels, both loads.

The .615" in .032" tablet back measures ~.727"-.730" in the wad. The .680" in the same wad measures .732"-.738". The bores of the double are .725". The 3rd picture is of recovered FS0 wads that look like they could be shot again.

FC1s were destroyed. WWAAF114s looked OK, but didn't group. FS3s didn't group either, and I didn't recover any wads.

I need some .648" RBs to try! The FS0s seem to be a a good wad for this application. I've not made attempts to maximize velocity, and haven't really experimented with powder charge except to substitute a slightly slower powder for the heavier ball.

[fcvan]

I spent the morning reading the post concerning the use of round ball loads (and slugs too) and this has really peaked my curiosity. After reviewing the posts concerning the use of COW it struck me that I use corn meal under my round ball in an 1858 Remington copy. Why not in a shot shell hull? Then I pondered the paper machete' concept as a wad and cup for the ball, all in one.

I have played with pressing home-made paper from slurry so making a press mold to form the wad-cup shouldn't be that difficult. I don't think a binder will be necessary but dipping the end of the wad-cup into boolit lube (like a lube biscuit for some BP loads) might also be a good idea. I love this web site, it gets the thought process going. Frank

[excess650]

My interest here was to see what kind of results could be obtained with both my rifled 870 and smooth 20" double. At this point I'm working more with the double. Between a large RB, buckshot, and fine shot, its gonna be formidable, short range workhorse.

I've not yet added COW or corn meal as a filler to help the support the RB. The FS0 and FS4 wads are up to the task, but the filler may enhance accuracy. One of these days I'll try it at 50 yards, but realize that a simple bead up front isn't going to help aiming consistency.

The idea of having (2) barrels and (2) triggers so as to have a large diameter RB in one barrel and buckshot or birdshot in the other barrel is a comforting thought when walking around my property. Between bears, snakes, and a long tailed cat I should be pretty well prepared.

I found it interesting how much point of impact changed from switching from .615" RBs to .680" RBs. In that I don't have adjustable sights on my double, this has been an enlightening exercise.

[MBTcustom]

I built a rear sight out of plumbers epoxy. It works realy well, and I can snap it off any time I get tired of it.

[35remington]

Guys, I'm looking for a .675" to .680" round ball to fit in a wad without pinching the petals on bore travel. A .690" ball would appear to be too wide.

I don't think I've found a site that has a mould that size.

Could anybody help me out here and post a link to a site with a mould of the desired dimensions?

ON EDIT:

Never mind! TRG3's mention of Track of the Wolf located a Lyman .678" mould, which should be what I need.

[longbow]

RCBS was marketing a two cavity mould but all I see now is the single cavity:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/873...ter-round-ball

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...62465&CAT=4461

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

RCBS was marketing a two cavity mould but all I see now is the single cavity:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/873...ter-round-ball

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...62465&CAT=4461

Longbow

Yeah, but who could afford that sucker!
I went out with a friend of mine yesterday evening and did some testing. We shot the .685 RBs at 20yds, 30yrds, 50yrds, 80yrds, 100yrds, and 150yrds!!!
The realy great part is that the sun was setting right behind us and you know what that does.
We could watch those balls all the way to the target. I chronyed them @1200FPS right on the money.
We were shooting my short barreled S&W and his long barreled Stoeger semi.
I cautioned Jason when we were at 150yrds, that we should watch carefully to see where the balls hit because they have been known to pick up a spin and veer off as they go. We witnessed only one or two balls that displayed that activity. The rest went pretty much right where we aimed them. I think that all things considered, we were able to cover (or at least scare the living schite out of) a bag archery target.
We also shot them into a stack of tightly bound (saran wrapped) phone books. The ball went through 6" of wet paper and mushroomed slightly. The alloy was 96/2/2. This would be way too much penetration for deer, but I will be going after hogs with this setup and they have a tendency to stop boolits via a very tough area covering the vitals, so I made the balls hard. With 1750 foot lbs of energy, if these dont shoot clean through a large pig then I dont know what to say.
Accuracy was astounding with this load, transferred energy was impressive. They worked well in both of our shotguns and were not too stout at all.
Here's the recipe although you should look it up for your self just to be on the safe side:
Hull: Remington STS green
Primer: Remington 209
Powder: 20grains of Hodgdon Clays (2.8cc)
Wad: Winchester WAA12
Filler: 1.6cc of COW
Projectile: .685 diameter Lyman round ball.
8 point crimp on a MEC 650 press.
(Again, these loads produce 1200FPS and 1750ftLb. of energy at the muzzle)
The charge bar on the press was removed to allow a controlled operation. Hulls were primed, then charged by using Lee scoops to drop the powder through the tube. Wads were installed in the normal way, Measured scoops of COW was poured down the shot tube in the same way as the powder was. Hulls were removed, and a ball was started sprue up into the crimp area of the hull and driven home by removing the shot tube from the press and using it to press the ball into the hull with the palm of the hand. Hulls were snapped back into the press and worked through the final three operations in the normal way (ie. crimp started, crimped, and sized)
You guys should try this recipe and see if it works as well for you as it did for me.
Again, please use a scale to check your powder scoops to make sure that you are throwing the correct powder charge! Double check this data with known published data just to be on the safe side!
Have fun!!!

[Lead Freak]

Back in the late '60's, I used to shoot .50 cal round balls out of a Rem. 20 ga pump with full choke. Using only a fiber wad under the ball without a shot cup, it shot pretty good groups at 50-75 yards. It's been a little too long to remember the load, but more than likely I was using Herco or Red Dot, since those were the only powders that I was using in my infancy. For these round ball loads are you using a cylinder barrel?

[MBTcustom]

Yep, smooth barrel with a cylinder choke.

[longbow]

goodsteel:

What size groups were you getting at the longer ranges beyond 50 yards?

So far I have not tested much beyond 50 yards. To begin with the Lyman slugs and some others I was testing would barely stay within 12" at 50 yards so not much point in shooting further. Then I went to heavier skirted slugs and different designs, some of which shot a little better and some worse. In the end after shooting hundreds of rounds and pounding myself silly I found a couple of heavy skirted homemade Foster style slugs worked well, round balls worked well and a couple of designs of attached wad slugs worked well. In fact the best were giving groups of around 3" at 50 yards with round balls being right in there.

I have as yet to do any serious testing at longer range due to lack of time.

I have read a couple of articles where smoothbore muzzleloader shooters claim to be able to keep round balls within 3" at 75 yards and some claim to be competitive with rifle shooters at 100 yards. A friend told me that a smoothbore shooter won in a 100 yard target competition against rifle shooters at a muzzleloader shoot he attended. Obviously depends somewhat on the load, gun and shooter skill too but it seems the potential for a round ball to maintain reasonable accuracy to 100 yards is there anyway.

A patched round ball from a smoothbore would leave the muzzle with no spin at all on it and nothing but air friction to induce a spin. A round ball from a shotgun has a wad behind it that may or may not affect flight as they separate.

I have to get out and do more shooting! I do like the round ball loads and they work very well to at least 50 yards so maybe after the snow melts I will get to the range and do some 75 and 100 yard testing of attached wad slugs and RB's.

6" groups or better at 100 yards was my goal when I started this quest for a modern Paradox type gun. Not tack driving but consistent 6" or better groups at 100 yards is good enough for me. If I can do it with a smoothbore I will be ecstatic! Even if I can do it with a smoothbore and rifled choke tube I will be very happy ~ especially if it is with RB!

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

I was getting a solid 4" group at 50 yards witch equates to 8 MOA. That seemed to be the accuracy at any range that I tried. I was under the impression for reading this thread, that the MOA would drasticly increase with distance, but that was not the case. I believe that I could have done better if I had a scope on that shotgun instead of the huge bead that I have, but even so, once I got to where I could "feel" the shot, I started dropping them in about a 12"-15" circle at 150yards. Not that I ever plan on shooting that far you understand, but it definitely showed some potential for accuracy far beyond what I had originally thought possible.
The good news is that at 35 yards I could freaking ventilate a shoot-n-see target about as fast as I could work the pump, and at 50-75 I was minute of pork-rind placing my shots. The pigs are in trouble!

[longbow]

Yup, 3" to 4" at 50 yards seems to be pretty standard for smoothbore and round ball with decent loads.

I have not spent much time to date shooting further with round ball and really not shooting paper for groups.

12" to 15" at 150 yards sounds pretty good to me if it is consistent. Like you said with a scope or better sights that should shrink some too.

Sounds like you have a good load going there.

I will have to load up some more RB's and set up some 100 yard targets to see how they do. Even 8" at 100 yards isn't too shabby if I can do it without fliers.

Have you got lots of pigs there? They seem to be a plague over much of the States now. I am sure that load will thin the herd some!

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

South Arkansas is ate up with 'em. Central and North Arkansas is holding there own though.
It wont be long though if the AGFC doesn't pull their heads out of their butts and get some of us hunters permission to bust these suckers some other time than when a deer season is in. They need to realize that if we dont nip this in the bud there won't be deer to hunt anyway.
I wrote them an e-mail but I doubt it makes anybody listen.
The good news is that land owners are free to take care of the pigs any way they see fit at any time of the year. A buddy of mine has a friend down south that is dragging 150 pounders out every weekend. He keeps grinding it up and making sausage out of it, but there is no end to the pigs. Mean while my fridge is empty so this might be a perfect situation for the two of us to help him out.
I wanted the RB load because I'm a big fat guy and I dont climb trees very well. I needed a weapon that will lay down the law in no uncertain terms in case things get a little dicey. With this shotgun, I can put 7 aimed shots on paper in 5 seconds. Oh yeah, I did it at 35 yards and not one shot would have missed a CD. My buddy just whistled and said: "remind me not to eeever break into your house!!"
Seriously, if any of you readers or lurkers have never tried this load you gotta give it a try.

[longbow]

Something I will have to try out is to make little cups out of COW or whatever to center and support the balls.

I have some forms I made out of CPVC couplings for my attached wad slugs and they should be about perfect to use for packing in some wet COW, mushed paper or whatever to make little cups by setting a ball on top and pressing. This might be quicker and easier to load than scoops of COW and/or patching.

The round ball loads are quick and easy to cast and load up nice too... and there is something appealing about that great big 'ol ball heading downrange!

I am sure you will have fun ventilating a few pigs. I bet the ball loads slap 'em hard and make quite an impression on them.

Good luck!

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

I tried out the .735 RB again and the results were impressive. I was shooting at 150 yards and I was scaring the heck out of a paper plate most of the time. The .735's are definitely more accurate than the .685's. No pig is safe out to 120 yards for sure.

[StratsMan]

I tried out the .735 RB again and the results were impressive. I was shooting at 150 yards and I was scaring the heck out of a paper plate most of the time. The .735's are definitely more accurate than the .685's. No pig is safe out to 120 yards for sure.

GS,

I load slugs in my smoothbore, so I'm curious about the weight of the .735... (I also have not perused this entire thread to see if it was mentioned...) Also, have you ever used a buffer like CoW with a Lee slug??? (I currently cast a 7/8 oz slug...)

[MBTcustom]

The .735 RB was seated over 1.6cc of COW, on top of a federal wad that had the petals cut off. I loaded it with SR4756 powder and a remington primer in a Win AA red hull.
I have never tried the Lee key slug. I like solid slugs that dont leak, (get it, leaky slugs! Ha!)
Anyway, I was enthralled with the idea of a heavy slug and the Lee is only 7/8oz while the .735 RB is 1 1/3oz.
I shot the .735 at a stack of phone books yesterday and it blew through 4 of them without stopping. Thats about 8"+ of wet paper. I am after enormous penetration, big holes, fast cycling, and minute of pie plate @ 100 yards with a smooth bore, and by golly I've got it. Those piggies aint got a doughnut's chance in a police station.

[longbow]

Here's a handy tool for round ball weights:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc.../roundball.htm

Goodsteel's got it right with round balls, they penetrate like there is no tomorrow. Hollow base slugs tend to flatten out unless they have a very thick nose and/or are hard or heat treated alloy.

I have tried a variety of solid, hollow base and round balls as slugs and so far round balls are the easiest to cast and load and give consistent dependable accuracy to at least 50 yards (Goodsteel is doing much better than that). Much better accuracy than most hollow base slugs I have tested in smoothbore anyway.

I have not used a buffer with the Lee slug but have with the Lyman Foster which is similar but without the key and with some home made hollow base slugs. I have used cornmeal and COW as filler/buffer but found it tended to pack into skirts. I think because it is light and airy it compresses a lot. Better is likely to use hot melt glue to fill the skirt. The helps keep the skirt from deforming as well as keeps wads from pushing up into the hollow base. It is light and flexible and stays where you put it.

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

Its kind of off topic, but I wanted to mention it since we are talking about hollow based slugs.
I made a couple of molds last week and tried them out yesterday.
This RB shotgun thing has stirred something deep in my soul from when I was a kid. When I was shooting air rifles, my favorite ammo was a lead .177 round ball. I would pry open my dads 10g BB loads and get the BB shot out for use in my air rifle (ah memories...) My other favorite ammo was a regular hollow skirt pellet.
The day that I first tried these round balls, it reminded me so much of when I was a kid with my favorite ammo. It was like I had come full circle. Of course, the very next thing that crossed my mind was how cool it would be to have a similarly proportioned pellet for my shot gun.
So, I decided there was only one thing to do:






I am so very, very happy!!!
These babies flew great to about fifty yards and then half of them went wild. At 150 yards about 25% of them flew like lasers and the rest peeled off at about 50-75 yards, but what a hole! I bring this up because of what longbow had said. I recovered a few of the wads and they had tried to push themselves into the hollow base of my .687 pellet. I think that might have contributed to the wild fliers. So maybe I should fill 'em up with glue?