45-120 in history???

[bigted]

ok as some know im kinda infatuated with this behemoth of a cartridge. i now am the proud owner of another 120 and it is housed in a shiloh with a very heavy oct barrel 34 inchs long...[read HEAVY]. at any rate i have never gone on a trudge thru the enternet looking for the particulars of where exactly this cartridge came from and who chambered it first.

first thing i found among little real info was that it came into being in late 1878 or early 1879.

another wrote that it came about in late 79 or early 80.

another hinted that sharps "could" have chambered it late in their run which ended in 1881??? according to this auther.

another actually lumped together the 110 with the 120 cartridges as being the same...such eronious info is maddening to me when published with no regard to correct research.

ive read that winchester chambered for this cartridge first but with no confirmed info.

some here and over on another forum mention the same about the winchester 85 being the first but i cant confirm this with the 3 hours of searching the internet.

does anybody have points to add to the muddy waters of the historic origins of this fun and powerfull cartridge? id appreciate any additional info concerning my pet blackpowder cartridge....the mighty 45-120 or as sharps refers to it as...calibre 45 and 3-1/4 inch.

[Don McDowell]

There are a few examples of Sharps rifles around with the 3 1/4 chamber. There are also loaded rounds from back in the day. Elmer Keith wrote several articles in the 1940's about his 45 3 1/4 sharps, and his 50 in the same case length...
There is some confusion, due to Sharps did infact call a load for the 2 7/8 a 45-120 as they merely crammed 120 grs of powder into that same case.
Winchester sold loaded and empty brass in the 45 3 1/4 inch sharps as late as 1916.
The 45 winchester express is sometimes confused with the 3 1/4 sharps but in fact the Winchester case is a 50 caliber case necked to 45.
Now if you aren't confused by now you never will be.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Perhaps a better question is when did the 45-3.25 case come to be. UMC started selling the cartridge in late 1884, this can be verrified after many years of research in the Rifle. Winchester was one of the first if not the first to chamber it in the 1885 as a standard cartridge,

Sharps Factory did chamber a single Rifle 1878 in the 3.25 for Winchester 1880 or so.

For several years Rifle adverts of the 1885 and Winchester ammo listed only light express bullet weights. By 1888 they show the 500 and 550 gr weights for bullets.

I have personally seen 45-120 ammo Made by Winchester that is a 2-7/8ths case. From the Personal effects of Noted Mt Buffalo Area Photgrapher LA Huffman.

The 45-120 often mentioned in the buffalo hunters accounts is with out doubt the 45-2-7/8ths case lenght, Sharps catologs mention selling 120 gr measures often, and also state that their 2-7/8ths can hold this amount of powder dependent on powder and care used to fill the case. A letter in 1878 from Neb asked about the 3.25 case length, The Sharps company reply was the same as Mentioned above. That pretty much tells the tale.

Few People even those that hold to loading as the old factory catalogs tell, seem to gloss over or ignore these statments.
Another one that the Sharps factory stated and more then once: "The 45 will do better work at 1000 yards then the 50 will do at 600."

I have spent years researching the subject and wrote about it to quite the extent.

KW
The Lunger

[MT Chambers]

However, at normal hunting ranges of up to 200yds. the .50s have it over the .45s, at least they do for me, as my .45/100 Sharps doesn't have the same effect on game as my 50/90.

[NickSS]

One thing I have determined for myself is that the 45 3.25 case was not used to slaughter many buffalo. The cartridges used during the great buffalo hunt were the 44-77 Sharps, 50-70 government, 45-70 (45 2.1), and the 45 2 7/8. There were probably a few others but these were the primary ones used. I have only killed a few head of big game using black powder cartridge rifles but I have used both a 45-70 and a 50-70 for this purpose. I feel that the 50-70 has a slight edge on the 45-70 for this purpose. At least the buffalo and elk I shot with a 5070 seamed to go down a little faster than the 3 elk I shot with a 45-70 all using black powder.

[Hang Fire]

I have personally seen 45-120 ammo Made by Winchester that is a 2-7/8ths case.

Ballard 5 1/2 Montana was only chambered with the 2 7/8" Sharps cartridge.

[bigted]

kenny...that case of sharps chambering 1 rifle...meaning that it only chambered that 1 rifle is this what your meaning? and also this rifle...was it a winchester or a sharps...sorry for the dislexi...im just trying to get it rite for my notes im trying to keep. also that is interesting that the referal to a 120 from the sharps factory was indeed in a 2-7/8th cartridge. maybe the feller i discounted on the net wasnt far from the truth then in that respect.

don...thanks for the info and yes i do sometimes feel confused but ill grunt thru as i want to reach the best possible understanding of this huge case.

mt chambers and nickss...ive not gotten to handle the 50's in any form except the muzzle loader and i considered it rather anemik in the roundball configuration and some more then the nipple wanted to withstand with anything over 80 frains of 2f powder and the 300 and 400ish boolits . also everytime i read of someone...especially on the west side of oregon harvesting an elk my mouth just waters...i like the moose up here but it aint no WAPITI !!!

thanks so far for the responses...many thanks

[Don McDowell]

Ted I'm of no particular opinion of where the 3 1/4 case came from. The one thing I do know is it was always called a Sharps cartridge even by Winchester and that strikes me as odd if it was Winchesters deal. I also know where there is a heavy barreled 74 sharps chambered in the 3 1/4 and there are loaded cartridges with it.....Aftermarket rechamber? maybe,,, maybe not...
One thing that makes the wheels start turning,,,, when Kenny mentions Winchester chambering the 85 in it,,, is it possible since JM Browning patented and sold the Browning single shot rifle in 1878, is it something ol John did and named and Winchester kept when they bought the rights to the singleshot rifle????
Could the 3 1/4 cases be something from Freunds or one of the other major gunsmith/dealers of the era?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,


Winchester was also in the habit of marketing their 1885 as similar to the Sharps and made no bones about trying to cash in on the Sharps name and rep. Thats from Winchester adds so why not call it a Sharps Cartridge.

it is possible, one thing for certain, it never was an offering in original Meacham conversions, I have copies of their catalog, they only offered 45-120 ammo in a 2-7/8ths case length.

The 5-1/2 as was mentioned CORRECTLY, I may add, up to 1882, was in a 2-7/8ths chamber.

Ted Sharps Chambered 1 Rifle only one a 1878 Borchardt. Their records are plan on this the heavy barrel Sharps in 3.25 I have seen are not even correctly marked and are aftermarket barrels, one and only one I have seen was such and did not even have the correct Case length markings on the barrel or the old reliable Stamp.

William Pickett one of the most noted hunter Tester Cranks had plenty of documented back and forth with the Sharps Rifle Company and was the bigest mover and Shaker for the 3.23 in a express loading. His Articles in the Rifle in 1884 state quite clearly that Sharps never did build a 1874 in 3.25 and by 1886 a fellow friend had one built but after plenty of testing he decided that anything past 114 grs of Powder was a total waste. He even spent money time and had a 1885 Winchester built in 2-7/8ths had ammo for it and sent it to a close friend at Frankfort Arsenal to Chronograph the loads.

Picket flat out states the the only original, reason for a 3.25 case was to use Express bullets for flatten Trajectorys. But again once he tested decided the 2-7/8ths case was all one needed.

As for the 50-90, Bill Bagwell aka the Rdnck has killed more game then most of us ever will with the Sharps and BP loadings, years ago he told me the 45-70 with the Government nose bullet would out kill any 50-90 he ever owned. He has been to Africa several times using both a 45-70 and 45-110 Business rifles

I have personally been on or actually killed buffalo with my own 2-7/8ths Business rifle, Kill rato for the 50-90 is well documented it avg 3.5 rounds per buffalo killed. At this stage of my own rifles kill rato per shots. We have killed 3 buffalo with only 5 rounds, So either the professional Hide hunters were dang lousy shots, or my 45-110 kills a lot better then any 50-90. In the BPCR news recent trip to NZ the 50-90 used 6 hits to kill a red stag, the 2 45 shooters one a 45-110 and the other a 45-90 used 2 shots each, the 40-70 Sharps Straight shooter used 1 shot to kill his. I will also add this, from my own personal experience, the only 1 shot kill I have witnessed was a 1750 Bull it was killed with my rifle using a 520 gr Lyman Govt bullet, with a Load that avg 1430 Fps, the bull was knocked off his feet and was dead when it it the ground.

I rest my case.

The Lunger

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

short PS:

Nick pretty well summed it up, neglecting one cartridge, quite Popular on the Northern herd and one of LA Huffmans go too rifles the 40-90 BN sharps. His was a 14# gun, I have seen it and handled this rifle.

KW
The Lunger

[Lead pot]

Well I haven't shot a Buffalo with my .50-90 yet but I will next fall so I cant say how good or bad the .50 will put ol shaggy down, but I have taken a nice two year old bull with the .44-90 BN and the .44 made a quick clean 1 shot kill on him.
Shot placement is what will bring a big critter down fast.

And I know for fact that my 50 shoots every bit as good from the 1K line then the 110 by shooting against the competitors using the .45-2-7/8.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Lunger,

reads like you wintered okay over there.

My gunsmith built me a heavy (14lb) 45-3.25" on a spare Wickliffe action I had. It is going with me to Africa at the end of April. With the laws banning BP on a plane, even loaded ammunition, how did Bagwell get his over?

Rich

[Chill Wills]

Lunger,

reads like you wintered okay over there.

My gunsmith built me a heavy (14lb) 45-3.25" on a spare Wickliffe action I had. It is going with me to Africa at the end of April. With the laws banning BP on a plane, even loaded ammunition, how did Bagwell get his over?

Rich

Idaho Sharpshooter, sorry. I am not who you are asking but this is how it works.

You fly with primed but empty cases. You fly with your bullets. You fly with your loading tools (not to many) and you use the powder they have waiting for you and load when you get there.
Ask me how I know.
Yes, .......it's worth it.

[Don McDowell]

Kenny I've never quite figured out why Winchester didn't just buy out the Sharps patents and keep right on going with the rifle only with their roll mark on the barrel? Seems like it would of been a logical thing for them to do.
I agree totally that alot of confusion comes from the 120 gr loading in the 2 7/8 case.

[Don McDowell]

Lunger,

reads like you wintered okay over there.

My gunsmith built me a heavy (14lb) 45-3.25" on a spare Wickliffe action I had. It is going with me to Africa at the end of April. With the laws banning BP on a plane, even loaded ammunition, how did Bagwell get his over?

Rich

Rich when Bill went to Africa I'm pretty sure he just took it as sporting ammunition. The biggest thing was the weight limit, something like 11lbs,,, not alot of ammo , but plenty to hunt with.

[218bee]

I found this is "WRA Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations" by Daniel Shuey
Sharps 45 2 6/10...introduced 1884...1886 headstamp appears in catalog
headstamp= W.R.A.Co. 45 S 2 6/10
Sharps 45 2 7/8...introduced 1878...1886 appears in catalog
headstamp= W.R.A.Co. S 2 7/8
Sharps 45 3 1/4 ...introduced 1884...1886 appears in catalog
headstamp= W.R.A.Co S 3 1/4
Dan is extremely knowledgeable about Winchester cartridges and boxes, so I believe these dates would be pretty accurate. Of course UMC, USC or maybe Sharps could have produced the cartridge at an earlier date. Also since this reference is pertaining to cartridges with a headstamp ...earlier versions without a headstamp may have been produced.
Clear as mud???

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,

Before I took up this 25# rifle I used to shoot my old 110 at Alliance, I am sure of the last 2 years I shot it there I won the scope class, and went 10/10 on the 1000 yard target both times. But your 50 does shoot as well how ever? you are using modern 600+ grain bullets, I wont do chin music over the nose shapes just bullet weights and the factory loads back then never loaded anything for the 50 over 500 grains. Where as the 110 did, Fact is the 50-90 was used but little on the Northen Herds, but the 45-2-7/8ths and the 40-90 Bn were and a lot. Records show 10,000 plus rounds a month shipped to 2 points Fort Laramie and Miles City from 1878 to 1880 just of the 2-7/8ths Sharps.

218 Bee your data matches mine to a Tee on the 3.25 case and the others also.

The 120 2-7/8ths cases and box of ammo are clearly marked on the box for Sharps Rifles, this ammo was most likely left over from the Smithsonian Expedition that Huffman went along to record the Photos. The Hunter was a well know Miles City buffalo hunter and listed that he too two 45-120 Sharps rifles along for the expediton.

Rich; Don is correct on how Bill shipped his ammo, Bills 2-7/8ths has 450 BP Express 2-7/8ths stamped on the barrel covering the Africa rules on Ammo.

As do 2 other Shiloh Business Rifles in 2-7/8ths for that express purpose, My Tatonka and Kirk Bryan's Whisper.

I now have a special mould that BACO made for me its PP 560 grs in Weight, Round Govt Nose at .441 diam, its loaded as the old Sharps Factory rounds, with thick 100% Cotton Rag paper of .0025 thickness, a card wad on top of a very hot lot of New Process Goex Fg, (Express) one of the very first test lots they did btw, next comes a 3/8th thick Grease cookie and a Winchester primer sleeve wad slick side to the grease cookie, and the Patched bullet.


Bill's years of hunting experience were drawn on to come up with the load, even when we used the 520gr Govt gg bullet I put a 3/8th Black Magic Grease cookie under it. Testing in 6 below zero temps we were able to shoot 16 rounds in a row no wipping and at 165 yards had a group that I could cover with the plam of my hand about 7 inches wad by 4.5 inches tall.

Rich get with Bill or Clarence on the Shiloh Forum both have done the Africa thing and know it in and out, Chills advice also works and well.

KW
The Lunger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

Wouldn't been awesome if Winchester had just went on with the 1874 action, instead they piggybacked their 1885 Highall in adds as having the same falling block action, kinda being Reputation Whores.

KW
The Lunger

[Lead pot]

I can understand why a lot of heavy barreled rifles and lighter calibers the hide runners used back then. The average height back then was just barely over 5' tall and most of them where a bunch lighter then you and I are. I dont think I would shoot as many as I do if I only weight slightly over 100 lbs. But then again I might.

[Chill Wills]

I am not a travel agent nor a travel expert of any kind.
I have traveled to Africa more than once.
I have shot Back Powder there.

Rules can change. Maybe it is different now. Maybe you know something different than the airlines advised.

I can tell you this; the rules as provided to us were, I was not able to board the plane with Black Powder in any form. It does not matter if it is in a cartridge or a powder can or in a magazine. Loaded ammo, called sporting cartridges or anything else containing BP does not fly.

I can be something of a scoff-law. Now, I am sure some risk takers just don’t mention their ammo is filled with black or will say it is smokeless if in the very rare event they are asked to disclose.

I for sure believe that it is done as many airline personal have absolutely no clue even if you told them the cases where filled with gun powder! I personally don’t think like Chicken Little and the sky will fall in, if BP loaded ammo vs smokeless ammo was on the plane in an emergency event.

Given the rules as laid to to us, even as a long-shot, I did not like the idea of spending time in an African slammer. That would be worse than sucking on a blow tube!