Magnum Bias

[TXGunNut]

I'm not shy, I know my shooting skills and hunting situations don't justify the investment in brass, powder and range time that a belted magnum requires. Good news is I don't feel handicapped with a lowly 30-06 as my "magnum"when I'm hunting, most or all of my kills could easily have been done with a 30-30, many with a pistol. I simply don't need what the magnum has to offer. If a critter won't come close enough for me to make a clean shot I simply sit and enjoy the scenery or get closer. No big deal.
I help out at the local public range before deer season and quite frankly I wonder how some of these yahoos ever bag a deer. They'll burn thru a box (or two) of ammo, find a hit or two on the target and call it good. Not all are shooting magnums but many are.
I don't have a problem with magnums. I have a problem with folks who think equipment makes up for a lack of skill, whether it be a magnum rifle or a "sniper" rifle.

[dmize]

Well I have trolled a bunch of threads like this one,commented on a few and been drug thru the coals. I really dont care what anynone thinks,but in my firt 44 years I have uncovered a lot of bull "****".
My first and favorite "deer rifle" is a Marlin 336 30-30,and if you have a relaoding buddy named Les that teaches you to split grains and shoot EACH load for accuracy,you can shoot enough that you can bust milk jugs every shot at 200 yards. My second most favorite is a 1895 Guide Gun,and IF you turn up the heat enough you can get them to shoot point of aim to 100 yards,it is a deer flattening non meat destroying SOB!!! And I also have two plaques from shooting perfect scores on a 150 yard course offhand with my .58 Lancaster.
I also have a Savage Tactical 300 Win Mag that at last look I have put almost 1,000!! rounds thru,empy primer boxes inside reloading folder, that will put 5 shots inside 3 inches at 400 yards EVERY TIME I pull the trigger right WITH the 168 grain Sirerra BTHP's that a tech at Sierra recommended for long range. I am lucky enough to have a 400 yard range outside my front door. I have killed a grand total of 5 deer with that rifle,BUT when I pull the trigger I KNOW where the bullet will hit.
I GET REALLY SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE BASHING "BELTED MAGNUMS" and the people that shoot them!!!!!!!!!!! I dont care what your reasons are!
Some of us shoot OUR RIFLES and have enough sense to NOT FOLLOW predicted trajectory tables,and make our own range cards.
Oh and for the record.......My biggest deer was killed with a single 255 LSWC fired from an iron sighted Marlin 1894 Cowboy Competition at about 70 yards.
Oh and another thing for the record the ONLY thing I head shoot are squirrels and rabbits. If I cannot get a double lung/heart shot on a deer I DO NOT pull the trigger.

[375RUGER]

Second point: Some people buy magnum cartridges to take advantage of their shooting skills. Exhibit A would be my brother. He filled his final tag last night with a 386 yard shot that dropped the yearling white tail in its tracks. His first tag was filled at 175 yards, but we knew he would only get one close up shot in the pasture before the whole herd vanished back to the edge of the woods.

Said brother put over 200 rounds downrange in the last month, because the landowner was looking for someone to help reduce the herd, and he wanted "hunters who could shoot".

If I may, Exhibit B, Military snipers. Need I elaborate?

Would there even be Magnum Bashing if the cartridge didn't have the MAGNUM in the name? 7mm Remington, 7mm Ultra, 300 Winchester, 300 winchester Short.
Just asking.
I own plenty of non-mag cartridges and plenty of magnum cartridges. Plenty but not too many.
My best long range rifle is a .308 AR-10T. My next best is a Ruger No. 1 7mm Mag. Both are less than .5 MOA rifles but the AR just edges out the No. 1, shoots about .25 MOA tighter.
I like firearms and cartridges that show me what I'm capable of. Only 1 or 2 people outside my immediate family know what I can and can't do. I shoot for my own benefit, not to impress anyone else. I do most of my long range stuff alone.

What really gets me is the one's that think no one can do it if they can't do it or have never seen it or just plain discount it even if they do witness it.

[lead chucker]

I wonder how this would have played out along time ago when smokeless powder was invented, I'm sure the black powder guys would say you don't need that smokeless powder to kill a deer. Just like now with all the belted mags. To each there own. If you like what you got then shoot it. I love my308 win it shoots as far as I'm comfortable. If you Like to shoot long-range and are hunting than there is a responsibility to the game you are hunting. Nothing worse than wounding an animal and having it die a slow lingering death. I have seen guys shoot 400+ yards and not even go check if the animal was hit. They say didn't look like it was hit and that's the end of it.

[LEADHOPPER]

I think that every gun has a situation. I have a 338 Win Mag, but wouldn't use it to shoot deer with. Got for a good deal and plan to go moose hunting in Alaska with it. I know that you can kill a moose with a 30/06, but it's not the moose that I worry about it's the big *** grizzly or black bear that I might come across. I spent 4 years up in the Fairbanks area and can say that all bears that I have seen in Georgia ain't got nothing on the bears up there. Do i think a 7mm Mag is over kill for deer hunting, yeah, but then again someone else might think that my .243 isn't big enough to drop a deer. And have been told many a times from people "OH, I have lost lots of deer with a .243" I think it all boils down to the fact that if someone is comfortable with a gun and go out and practice with the gun at the distance that they plan on shooting it then hey who am I to tell you what to shot. If you have to reach out and touch your game then no, a 30-30 isn't the tool for the job. I have made 400 yards shots but it's not the norm and if I hadn't gone out a practiced that shot I wouldn't have taken it when the oppurtunity presented itself. Just because you have gun that will shoot that have doesn't mean you should.

[Bane]

Magnum cartridges have their place and their purpose, as do Blackpowder, large bore, small bore.. its all down to the user. A rifle is a tool, the Calibre gives the tool specification. You wouldnt use a file to drive in a nail, and (In my mind) you wouldnt use a .300 ultra mag to take a Fallow deer at 100 yards.


Personally i have seen Magnums in the best of hunting situations, and the worst, these are just my views from a local standpoint. (New Zealand)

One of the biggest causes i have seen (Again, speaking locally here) is the "Need for more power" there is a small group of hunters that for some reason believe that if their round hasent passed clean through the game they are shooting its not strong enough. I, personally, do not understand this train of thought, especially here as a round passing through a deer can travel for some distance and be a potential hazard to other hunters in the area. This is Group #1. They believe that they need moar power, moar distance, yet on the whole their hunting is only done at a maximum of ~200 yards, where something like a .308 would suffice more than adequately.

Likewise, i have been down south and seen people happily knocking Tahr and Wapiti off at 800 yards with .300 win mags, Where i first started hunting you just couldn't do that, you'd be lucky to see more than 100 yards in any direction. This is Group #2, these guys spend their time on their rifles and their skills to fill their particular hunting environment. They are shooting across mountain ranges and valleys where often getting close to an animal before you can shoot it is virtually impossible, so you need the extra range to make a kill.

What i have noticed from both of these groups is that Group #1 will swear by their .300 win mag/7mm rem mag/.300 ultra mag/.338 lapua/105mm howitzer, regardless of hunting conditions, regardless of situation and completely regardless of surrounding area. These are the guys who give the Belted magnums and their counterparts the bad names.

Group #2 is more likely to go bush with something like a .30-30 and track pigs. They are THE FIRST to admit that even though their Magnum rifle is their favorite gun, they can shoot the furthest with it and have claimed animals at those extended ranges, it is a Tool to complete a Job, its not perfect at EVERYTHING, so they are willing to set it aside for something more suited to the job.

I suppose people need to figure out if they're in group #1 or group #2, from what i've seen so far most people are in Group #2.

[XWrench3]

Most biases, I believe, stem from ignorance.

AMEN!
i hunt with several high powered rifles, i also own a 30-30 and a 223. i would only consider the 223 a deer rifle in a true survival situation. i am old, beat up and about half crippled. so i need a rifle that will put what ever i shoot at on its side in a big hurry. my 300 win mag, or 45-70 do that for me right now, no questions asked. the 300 win mag has even done a great job of killing a whitetail AFTER penetrating thru a 4" oak tree that i did not see in the scope as i was following a moving deer. in fact, it has been to date the only animal that has run any appreciable distance after shooting it. that animal actually ran about 80 yards. so i knew something was up. all the rest have dropped in their tracks (roughly 90%), or within 10 or 15 yards. several have actually "flipped", which i suspect is a huge electrical energy dump caused by the shock of the bullet going thru the animal rather than any hydraulic/mechanical force. i have also shot many deer with the ol 30-30. i have had 2 drt's with that, both at very close range. the rest have gone less than 100 yards save one 8 point. and that was shot very well, it just flat out refused to die, until there was no blood left in it to provide pressure to sustain its life. i have no problem with other people shooting deer with small low powered rounds, so long as they actually kill, rather than wound it so it dies a long, lingering infectious death. i just prefer drt's over chasing animals. when an animal piles up in its own tracks, you know it is dead before it hits the ground. and it is hard to be any more humane than that when killing things!

[white eagle]

I am afraid the old a 223 will kill better than a 300 magnum in the wrong spot
is foolishness
any gun in the wrong spot is in the wrong spot
just because you give old wrong spot a 223 whats to stop him from being 223 wrong spot
and anyone that hunts with a 223 has to be a good the better shot
size does make a difference
don't believe me
shoot a couple of different deer in the same spot with a 223 and a 45-70
see which one does better
quicker ,cleaner easier to track just a few things that make bigger better
now add speed to that
ask Roy Weatherby bout that one
sure a patched r/b will kill
so will a knife

[Ron.D]

I couldn't agree with White Eagle any more than I do. I get really tired of folks who hunt in thick eastern woods preaching about their 32-20's or whatever to folks who may hunt the wide open plains. Among us are those who have 20 chances a season and none over 75 yrds. and those among us that may be lucky enough to get one shot at a running deer at 250 yrds in a whole season. I hunt with a 45-70, a 444, a .358W, a 30-06, a 7mm Rem. Mag, a 270 that's taken more game than the rest put together, and the last bear I shot was with a cast boolit from a 43 mauser using the holy black. I love them all and hope to live long enough to take game with each of them again. Ron.D

[303Guy]

I have seen guys shoot 400+ yards and not even go check if the animal was hit. They say didn't look like it was hit and that's the end of it.

It's not the magnums or the long range shooting that bothers me, it's the taking a pot shot at an animal with the possibility or hope of hitting it that does - at any range!

[dk17hmr]

I love these threads....because they are always talking about the rifles/cartridges I use.

Evil Black Rifles....Check
Small calibers centerfires...Check
High powered scopes....Check
Short Magnums and Belted magnums....Check
Shooting long range...Check

One shot kills...sometimes at extended ranges...Check

But Im not your average guy with a camo hat and a rifle.

Just something to think about, a 35 whelen can push a 225gr at just about 270fps and a 338 win mag will push a 225gr at just over 2800fps. What makes a 338 a magnum and the 35whelen not?...I guess the belt

[TXGunNut]

It ain't the cartridge, it's the loose nut behind the trigger. If my hunting situations called for it I'd have one, probably a 300 Win or Wby Mag. It's amazing what a skilled shooter can do w/ a 300WM @ 1000 yds but my heroes are the guys who smack steel (and critters) with a BPCR.

[303Guy]

Oh but the Whelen and the 30-06 are magnums! (With modern loadings). Heck, I think a 308 is too fast. What can the 30-06 firing a 168gr BTSP do at long range that something else can't? (I don't have one but would consider one for long range if not a 280 Rem).

[richhodg66]

Don't disagree with anything you've said about rifle or shooters, however, your statement "I don't "hunt" out or tree stands" is BS. I do hunt from them and ground blinds too, but I set up an ambush plan be it tree stand or blind after scouting, figuring out movement of the deer and being there, quiet, still and hidden, when they show up. To me, that is hunting, much more so than walking around til you see one at a quarter mile away.

For the record, I shot three deer this year, two adult does and one two year old eight pointer, two with a muzzle loader, one with a .30-30, all with bullets I cast. One was from a ground set up, two from trees. The farthest about 50 yards, the closest under 10 yards. To me, that's more hunting than the shots you describe. A guy who can't get any closer than 386 yards from a yearling ain't Daniel Boone to be sure and probably needs to spend less time on the range and more time scouting and learning field craft.

Use whatever you want. I've killed them with a 6mm, .25-06, 7mm Mag, .30-30, .308, .30-06, .35 Remington, .50 and .54 caliber muzzle loaders and a Zwickey broadhead from a longbow. All of them work, never shot one beyond about 100 yards. No biases against equipment here.

[Norbrat]

The main issue I see with "Magnums" is when gun shop salesmen convince newbies that they absolutely must have a 300 Win Mag to go hunting.

I mean, you never know, you MAY get a chance at a bull camel or a water buffalo, even though they are in the remote outback and at least 1000 miles from home!

I have had too many young guys roll up at the range to try out their new, first ever rifle, almost always a 300 Win Mag, and always purchased from one particular gun shop.

Some of these blokes have never even shot a .22 before, so you can imagine how interesting that experience was for them. After 5 shots, they are invariably punch drunk and have lost any interest they may have had to go hunting.

Probably good for the gun shop though as they must have a bunch of rarely used 300 Win Mags traded in or sold back to them!

[bearcove]

I mainly bow hunt and don't worry about filling my tag. I like to get out in the woods. Sneaking up on a whitetail on foot is not common but when you do and shoot one with an arrow then you feel like you did something. To me that is hunting.

Shootin an unsuspecting deer from ambush is harvesting, not the same. Not against it, yes I do it, but don't consider it to be "hunting" in the sense of fair chase.

[303Guy]

Probably good for the gun shop though as they must have a bunch of rarely used 300 Win Mags traded in or sold back to them!

Probably not. That's a potential future gun nut not going to happen which means future lost sales.

[bowfin]

A guy who can't get any closer than 386 yards from a yearling ain't Daniel Boone to be sure and probably needs to spend less time on the range and more time scouting and learning field craft.

richdog66, you are commenting on several things here you know nothing about, which is part of the problem with "Magnum Bias"

First off, do you know why I don't hunt out of tree stands on this piece of land?

Second, do you know why my brother didn't attempt to get closer to the yearling than 386 yards?

I will give your answers for you: No, you don't know why. Yet without this information, you formed two opinions. That is ignorance.

Let me help you overcome that ignorance:

I don't hunt from treestands on that piece of ground because there are NO TREES. Yep, over 300 acres and not a single tree. That's right richdog, the ground you hunt on might not look the same as everybody else's. I hunt in Nebraska, and I have killed turkeys that were out in the Sandhills, more than a mile away from trees, feeding on grasshoppers while they were still sluggish from the morning dew.

So what works for you wouldn't work for me. I would look silly hunting from a tree stand that was just lying on the ground, wouldn't I?

As for the 386 yard yearling:

That deer had poked his nose back onto the land we had permission to hunt after we had dropped the first one. It jumped the fence and was staring at us. I guess we could have tried to drop down and low crawl to it (remember, no trees!), but we were right up against legal shooting time.

The other crummy problem would be the 300 yards of low crawling AWAY from the deer that would be required to get to the creek crossing, then cross the creek then start from there. I'll admit I'm not Daniel Boone enough to low crawl close to 700 yards in ten minutes. Last time I low crawled for turkeys, it took me almost two hours to cover half of that.

Mind you, I am not saying you couldn't, because I don't know how good you are. in field craft and scouting. So commenting on something I know nothing about would make me look ignorant...

I will go get a picture of the land if you refuse to believe what I have just related to you. Do you want a Google Earth shot to map the stalking phase, or do we just drop it all right here???

[Reload3006]

once again if you dont do it like I do it it dont count. <shaking head> No matter what method you use to hunt. stalking watching from a good stand (ambush) whether its with a bow a pistol a rifle a Whooooooooooo shaking in my panties "Magnum" but hey lets not just bash fire arm owners or hunters lets go whole hog here. If you dont use a long bow your not a hunter , but wait says the Recurve hunter if your not using traditional archery gear your not a hunter, wait a minuet says the Compound bow hunter i have to get close. but so does the cross bow guy.

I ask all of you what is the big deal? honestly? a bunch of children arguing over childish things

[bowfin]

a bunch of children arguing over childish things

Actually, this thread was started as a debate. A debate is a form of arguing, but arguing doesn't automatically reduce us all to being children, though (as one who is participating in this argument), you can call any of us or all of us children.

Debates can be informative and entertaining and can they sharpen the opinions and beliefs of those who participat. They also make for popular threads. For example, when was the last time you saw a thread started so all can agree that a .308 Winchester is a useful cartridge? Not very often, because everybody knows how that tone urns out and nobody would care to read through six pages of "Yeah, sure it is."

Some people get upset, anxious or uncomfortable around dissent, debates, and arguments of any sort. Certainly this thread would qualify as a place to find all of that. I imagine that there are places and situations for all of us that make us upset, anxious, or uncomfortable.

So as far as it is in our power to do so, I put forward the suggestion that we have no need to voluntarily place ourselves in places that make us upset, anxious, or uncomfortable or read threads and posts that we find nothing more than distasteful.