Going KABOOM with undercharged loads?

[MBTcustom]

I fired a squib in a long-slide 1911 once. The boolit lodged pretty much in the middle of the barrel, I unscrewed the antenna off my truck and pounded it out with that. Loaded up and rocked on.
In 15 years of reloading I have made two mistakes, that's one, but I also put a double charge of unique in a 30-06 shooting a 165grain RN boolit. It stamped the markings flat on the back of the case and I had to use a rubber hammer to beat the bolt open. Definitely a double charge and not S.E.E. In both instances, I knew there was something not right about that batch of ammo. After the rifle mistake, I dont mess around! If I have any doubts about the quality of the ammo I have made, I pull every blessed one of those boolits and start over. I have only had to do that once. I decided to be more careful and to adopt reloading practices that are more absolute in the way they are conducted. Also the wife knows to hold all phone calls and not to disturb me when I am charging my brass.

[Larry Gibson]

I've had 2 instance of squib loads with cast bullets in revolvers being forced into the barrel by the primer alone. The cylinders could both be turned. I caught myself with a 44 Magnum load and a friend with a 357 magnum load. Had we fired the next shot..............

I've also had several rifle bullets get driven out of the case into the throat/leade by the primer alone, especially with long throated chambers. I've also had some where the pullet stayed in the case neck and was extracted. Subsequently I've refined my loading habits to where "no powder" doesn't happen any more. I've also had a couple factory rounds with no powder in them.

Just because it hasn't happened (yet) to some doesn't mean it won't.

Larry Gibson

[Reload3006]

I had it happen to me just last weekend. in a GP 100 primer pushed a Jacketed bullet 1" up my bore came right out with a piece of drill rod. but it happened. SO lesson for everyone if something doesn't feel right sound right act the way your pretty sure it should STOP AND CHECK THINGS OUT>

[robertbank]

I had it happen to me just last weekend. in a GP 100 primer pushed a Jacketed bullet 1" up my bore came right out with a piece of drill rod. but it happened. SO lesson for everyone if something doesn't feel right sound right act the way your pretty sure it should STOP AND CHECK THINGS OUT>

Perfect.

Take Care

Bob

[Oreo]

I have fired a number of boolits with no powder and have never had one leave the case much less get lodges in the barrel. The only instances which I have had bullets lodge in the barrel were where the powder was contaminated with lube or oil.

The scenario you posted is virtually identical to breech loading a rifle.

Not exactly like breech loading. When breech loading there still isn't supposed to be a significant gap between powder & bullet. In the scenario I'm talking about, & maybe during SEE, the bullet is far enough down the barrel that by the time the powder has burned enough to start the bullet moving (which would be longer then in a properly loaded round due to increased combustion chamber volume) the powder might be burning (& pressure rising) much faster then normal.

[M4bushy]

I had it happen to me just last weekend. in a GP 100 primer pushed a Jacketed bullet 1" up my bore came right out with a piece of drill rod. but it happened. SO lesson for everyone if something doesn't feel right sound right act the way your pretty sure it should STOP AND CHECK THINGS OUT>

While at the range with my 13 year old son, we have a rule, if a hand gun malfunctions while he is firing it, it goes on the bench pointed down range and he notifies me of the issue. We at all times have a squib rod in our range bag so I make the weapon safe, remove the mag/open the cylinder and run the rod down the barrel. I don't care if im sure the round went off, any malfunction we assure there isn't a barrel obstruction with the squib rod.


Ron

[altitude_19]

Well, I learned even more than I was after with this one.
Larry, do you remember who wrote that article? It is EXACTLY what I was after and I'd like to hang on to it for reference when this comes up later (you know it will). Sorry it took me a while to get back to the thread I started. Family emergencies and what-not kept me busy. Thanks for all the input!

[waksupi]

Go find the 1968 editions of Handloader magazine, there are sources for several NATO studies done on SEE.

[Larry Gibson]

Well, I learned even more than I was after with this one.
Larry, do you remember who wrote that article? It is EXACTLY what I was after and I'd like to hang on to it for reference when this comes up later (you know it will). Sorry it took me a while to get back to the thread I started. Family emergencies and what-not kept me busy. Thanks for all the input!

I'd have to dig through my own archives or research but I don't think I have the author. It was Handloader 187, June-July 1997 issue if you in a research mood.

Larry Gibson

[BBarrett]

I have in my shop a custom SSK Contender barrel and Contender frame in .250 Sav. that the reloader under charged the cases. He said he wanted to shoot as accurately as he could with it and thought he could with less powder. I showed him in the books what would happen. The next weekend he showed me what did happen. He ripped the firearm all to pieces. I am sure glad I wasn't there to see it first hand. I do have parts that was left and showed several people what happens. By the way, the fellow died from cancer a few years later, but before he died, gave all that to me.

[GT27]

My opinion is like the other old timers here,stay with whats in the black and white,deviating is bad Ju Ju!!

[altitude_19]

And now I know not only "what" but "why" as well!

[MBTcustom]

I too, am going to use this page and the information in it as a reference. In fact I already have! Quite a lot to think about. I'm still trying to make sense of the gradual pressure rise before the big event. I wonder if that is the exception or the rule? I will definitely be watching for it in the future. I just wonder if any other factors could produce a gradual rise in pressure that way, given that the same powder charge and boolit combo is used. I am interested because that is something that you can see on the chronograph a ways before you get a flattened primer or a stiff bolt. I just want to know what I am seeing when I am seeing it.
Thanks again for all the patience and informative posts by all you great fellas.

[o6Patient]

purposely under loading to see if we get a pressure spike? Is that the question?
Sure; I'll use your gun..a long string, and a large tree to hide behind.

[Camba]

In my uneducated opinion, a primer alone going off before the powder begins to burn (in terms of micro/milli seconds) can push the bullet into the landing grooves and as the powder fully ignites it would act as a pipe bomb. And again, that could be hard to prove from load to load. That could result from a low powder load as well as from a full powder load. But it is just my opinion and I don't have any way to prove it other than that.
Camba

[38superdave]

Trying to read this thread through is challenging. I read a few posts then stop to throw something. Bet my cat won't be out and about for next few days after bring spun a 180 after taking an aft hit from a high velocity Justin Roper boot. Didn't mean too, cat just didn't file IFR flight plan before take off, that's all.

Secondary ignition is explained in Vihtavouri manual as "phenomenon." Meaning, it's theory. I'm not a rocket scientist or ballistic expert but have enough sand in my boots to regard secondary ignition as real phenomenon.

No, no worries of secondary ignition in pistol loads. I've tested the theory in pistol all the way down to half grain charges. Slower burning powders have a weird feel in hand after ignition, best description I can muster is wrapping a hand around an inflating balloon. I believe I felt pressure build and release as bullet exited bore.

I spent the better part of two summers working reduced power/reduced recoil 9mm and .45acp loads. I don't need a million dollar lab report to tell me what I already know.

Where we see evidence of secondary ignition/catastrophic case failure is within the new .30 caliber sub-sonic calibers. Scenario is fast burning rifle powder filling a small case portion and long VLD bullet.

It's absurd when posters chime in with the notion of a double charge. For those new to this, verify everything you read. Lots of opinions in reloading forums. Some good, some not so much.

dc.