Going KABOOM with undercharged loads?

[altitude_19]

Has anyone every actually done this on purpose to verify it happens as it's said to? Do you have video?
To believe is one thing. To understand is another.
I will never buy the line "We've never managed to make it happen in a lab but I SWEAR it's true!"
I hearken back to the days when "everybody knew" that soldiers in formation should break step before crossing bridges because the harmonics of that many boots in step with one-another would destroy the bridge. I'm sure that was in a field manual somewhere (like this business is in ABC's of reloading) and I'm sure there were lemmings-a-plenty to defend it without asking for proof (the Wisdom Gods of drill and ceremony wrote it just like the Wisdom Gods of munitions wrote the ABC's of reloading). But such a thing has never been proven and as such was eventually dismissed.
Now, I really want to get to the bottom of this one (and believe it or not haven't made up my mind on it). Anybody's personal KABOOM experience is irrelevent unless they did it on purpose.
So can ANYBODY please show me where somebody INTENTIONALLY managed to destroy a test weapon with an undercharged cartridge and succeeded?
PLEASE DO NOT CONTRIBUTE IF: You saw a gun blown up by accident and THINK it was due to an undercharge. That is supposition and irrelevant.

[Reload3006]

I think I will choose to take Winchester Olins word that WW-296 H110 will Kaboom. What would they have to gain by telling you not to under load it? I paid too much for my revolvers and Equipment and I like my hands and face too well to ignore the manufactures warnings. hey Call me a paranoid Idiot but Listening to the Manufacturer has not resulted in my loss of gun ammo or limb in over 40 years of loading.

But Its your life you gun do what you think is right.

[Mooseman]

It Can and has happened...read it for yourself.
http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

[para45lda]

And Mythbusters proved that a formation creates harmonic vibrations powerful enough to damage a bridge didn't they?

Wes

[milprileb]

Legend has the Krauts jumped without parachutes into snow banks in Norway
and all was well.

No thanks, and No... I won't test the Kaboom thing either.

[462]

Not too long, ago there was a discussion about secondary explosive effects, and a member posted some lab test results proving that reduced loads of slow burning powder can and will cause an SEE, if that is what you are asking about.

[newcastter]

Maybe this is a good suggestion for a mythbuster show!!! would put alot of arguments to rest.

[altitude_19]

And Mythbusters proved that a formation creates harmonic vibrations powerful enough to damage a bridge didn't they?

If I remember correctly, they disproved it altogether. Then again I did just hit 27...senility is hitting me pretty hard.

[altitude_19]

It Can and has happened...read it for yourself.
http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

I only saw a lot of stories of KABOOMs where the shooter POSTULATED that undercharging was the cause. Near as I can tell, that page has nothing about a successful, INTENTIONAL replication of the condition. That's what I'm trying to find. There's really no other way to prove the theory.

[stillkickn]

The OP didn't ask anyone to go out and test their own guns, he asked if anyone had proof. As a new guy to reloading I'm interested in this as well and did find the reading listed in post #3 to be useful but not proof. Laboratory proof.
It seems to me that one of the more difficult things for a new guy is to know all of the parameters to be safe. For example I read here that very light loads in large cases is dangerous. I also read that very light loads are a way to swage a barrel. The words light and large are not specific enough for a new guy. I load 18 grains of 3031 in 30-30 and to me that looks like a light load in a large case. Lots of volume left over. To further the conundrum in my mind, I consider using filler to keep the powder in place for more consistent burn, but I see this can cause problems as well...?
This hobby has lots of tribal knowledge and hidden gotchas so I appreciate everyone else's experience. Good question OP.

[waksupi]

Well, all the old timers, and powder manufacturers are probably wrong. You guys go ahead and do the experiments, and report back. Gotta choose if you are going to be bold, or old.

[220swiftfn]

I believe what the OP is referring to is the "Bullseye Surprise" which they couldn't replicate in a lab (but a double charge did the same damage)... As to his "I'm only going to believe you if you've done it yourself"..... By that reasoning the world is flat (I've never been in space.) What I can contribute to this is that an undercharge of Black Powder WILL cause a "Kaboom" of the detonation variety......

BTW, to see what harmonics can do, Google "Galloping Gertie"......


Dan

[stillkickn]

Waksupi - No one is looking for permission to do something stupid. Just the knowledge of why. As I read the information in these posts and the articles provided there seems to be room for other causes. As to the old timers and powder manufacturers being wrong? Who said they where wrong? That's exactly the experience I'm looking for. I agree with you on bold or old, that's why the question was asked.

[Reload3006]

When you under load a cartridge of certain powders you get into unpredictable areas. That is why Old timers and Manufacturers tell you to abide by certain parameters. For example you under charge a case and you stick a boolit in your bore then fire again most likely you get a Kaboom. Maybe you get a kaboom before the boolit sticks in the bore either way you are in dangerous water. Sometimes its better not to ask why kind of just like learning algebra dont question it until you have been at it for a while and then you will have the tribal knowledge too.

[smkummer]

Until I fixed my Lee powder charger on my Pro 1000, it would occasionally drop a under charge of either 700X or Unique in a 38 special case. These ranged from no powder to anywhere in between. I was happy when enough powder was present to push the bullet out the barrel. So out of 30-40 undercharges, nothing strange happened.

[Reload3006]

Well I suppose for all you unbelieving whippersnappers go out and commence experimenting. If you live through it give us old idiots an education. its never to late to learn.

[stillkickn]

Thanks Reload. The source of my question came partly from something I recently read that described using a grain or so of Bullseye to fire a cast boolit as a method of swaging the barrel. A very light load. I reread the the link provided above and see that the speed of powder burn is a big factor. The analogy of a grain dust explosion in a silo helps me understand why this would happen. So, do you think a grain of Bullseye to swage a barrel is safe?
I will try to find where I read this so I can provide it.
All of the posts about safety and not leaving known parameters are well taken.
Safe shooting.

[Bret4207]

If by "a KABOOM" you mean the Secondary Explosive Effect that is widely reported when using slow burning powders in large cases or the ringing of chambers form similar events, then yes, it has happened, been explained, tested and verified. Our own Felix Robbins, an actual, honest to God retired rocket scientist, has explained the SEE in detail several times. The ringing effect has best been explained in "The Modern Sheutzen Rifle" by Dell and Schwartz.

Your 18.0 3031 in a 30-30 case uses a medium burning rate powder in a relatively small case. If you were using 18.0 grs of H870 in a 300 Mag then yeah, you might well see an SEE! Plus, if that 30-30 you are using carries an RCBS 30-180FN for instance, that is going to intrude far deeper into the case than, say, a Lee Soup Can which sits waaaay up in the neck. All this stuff alters the case volume and pressure and burn rate, etc., etc., etc.

I suppose if you wanted to test it and had access to a barreled action of no value you could do it by chambering it to a nice big 300 Mag or 7mm Mag case and using a very slow powder. If you had something like Larrys Oehler PBL you could track the pressure curve and spike too. You might find it doesn't happen every time, but that when conditions are right it happens none the less. Lacking all that I'd stick to established safety guidelines from the powder manufacturers.

Powder burn rate chart- http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

[Bret4207]

Oops, you were posting when I was writing. A very fast powder like BE is not likely to ever give you problems when used in small amounts, other than sticking a boolit in a barrel. If you want and accurate slug for barrel measurement, then you need to upset the slug in the barrel. Shooting a .308 slug up a .311 barrel will give you a slug measuring about .308! OTH, if you put the slug in the throat, upset it and drive it out you'll get an accurate idea of your dimensions.

[stillkickn]

Ya Bret, I don't see shooting a boolit as the most practical way to measure a barrel but did want to know if it was safe as it seamed contradictory. Thanks.
I will look for the Felix explanations of SEE as much of this is still beyond me but good reading anyway.