38 SPL 158 Grain LSWCHP "FBI-Load" Hardness

[Menner]

I don't have a snub nosed 38 but I do have some questions my cc gun is a 3" barreled taurus 740 slim and I bought a HP mold from Erik (great mold) so far have casted nothing but straight WW. the boolits I have recovered (set over 4.5 gr red dot right at 950 fps) I have not been completly happy with the expansion my thinking is alloy is to hard. my next step is to try pure lead looks like from info here I should not have any problem with leading at 950 fps I was reading another thread about soft nose boolits for game with a WW base and a lite went off why would this not work with a HP boolit or am I over thinking this as a pure lead boolits should function fine with little or no leading?

[C. Latch]

I don't have a snub nosed 38 but I do have some questions my cc gun is a 3" barreled taurus 740 slim and I bought a HP mold from Erik (great mold) so far have casted nothing but straight WW. the boolits I have recovered (set over 4.5 gr red dot right at 950 fps) I have not been completly happy with the expansion my thinking is alloy is to hard. my next step is to try pure lead looks like from info here I should not have any problem with leading at 950 fps I was reading another thread about soft nose boolits for game with a WW base and a lite went off why would this not work with a HP boolit or am I over thinking this as a pure lead boolits should function fine with little or no leading?

In a defensive situation, is there ANY possibility of shooting enough rounds, at a great enough distance, for leading to become an issue?

[Forrest r]

You might try mixing ww & pure lead in a 50/50 mix. You're looking for a 9bhn to 10bhn hardness for 950fps. I shoot range scrap & it's in that hardness range most of the time. When I smelt a batch (100# @ a time) I'll test it. If it's on the soft (around 8bhn) I'll use it to cast hbwc's & hp for the snub noses (850fps tops). If it's around 10bhn I'll use it to cast hp's for multiple calibers for bullets moving 900fps to 1100 fps.

40 to 1 lead/tin ='s 8bhn 800fps
20 to 1 lead/tin ='s 10bhn 1000fps
10 to 1 lead/tin ='s 12bhn 1200fps

ww are around 12 bhn.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Tagged for updates.

[harley45]

Tagged this is the load I'm trying for with my new MP 358156

[Menner]

I agree that the number of pure lead rounds that would go down the pipe would be for expansion testing. for practice I would use the WW boolit I will compare the two booloits for accuracy and run them through the crony will try both pure lead and a mix of 50/50 WW/PL
I think it was the idea of experimenting with the combination bullet that made think about trying it I live in Delaware a shotgun only state for deer and that is the only large animal that we have and my varmit gun is a 204 and no need for a soft point cast boolit to punch paper
Thanks

[Forrest r]

Lucky dog!!! You need to post some pics of your experimenting, these bullets are a ton of fun. Sold an old lyman single cavity hp 358156 mold years ago & have regretted it ever since.

A little reading material (70 years old), I like these links because they show pictures of the bullets for the different alloys/velocities. They might help you as a visual aid to compare what your bullets look like after impact compared to their at the different velocities/alloys.

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...20rifleman.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...20rifleman.pdf

[Tatume]

The one detail I don't see mentioned in this thread is that the 158 grain, hollow point, 38 special +P ammunition purchased by the FBI was Federal Ny-Clad. The nylon outer cover offers no ballistic or terminal advantage, it was for reduction of air-borne lead in indoor ranges. This is the ammunition I carry in my backup S&W Airweights to this day.

[Larry Gibson]

the 158 grain, hollow point, 38 special +P ammunition purchased by the FBI was Federal Ny-Clad.

Should change "was' to "is" as in currently.

Back in the day (mid '70s) the Winchester pictured in a previous post "was" the FBI load. That's where the box of ammo in the photo came from? I was given a case of it by the FBI at an Oregon BPST (Board of Police Standards and Training) firearms instructor training session, still have 5 boxes left. I was an advanced firearms instructor in Oregon at the time. That same W-W +P 158 LSWCHP ammunition became the duty load for my department after it was thoroughly tested.

The Federal Ny-Clad wasn't around then.

Larry Gibson

[Tatume]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification.

[Bonz]

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

"Typically, the FBI Load utilized a very soft lead alloy of 5.5–6 as measured on the Brinell hardness scale to ensure reliable expansion."

[Crash_Corrigan]

When I carried a .38 Special revolver for the NYCPD we were issued 158 GR LSWC ammo. It came in a nice nickled case and was easy to shoot and very accurate. However the terminal ballistics were not so good. One of my friends was a reloader and he came up with a loading which utilized the department issue case and a much softer boolit. It looked just like department issue ammo but had a healthy charge of 5.8 gr of Unique powder to move it along better.

It was so much better that I had problems with cases sticking in the chambers. My answer to that was to carry a NY Reload. A 2nd revolver strapped to my left ankle. It was much faster to grab another gun than it was to reload the Smith Model 10. The only time I had to reload under stress was after I had pumped 6 rounds into an armed felon and he kept on running. After I popped up from behind a USPS mail storage box and pointed my snub nosed Smith Model 10 at this guy has was falling down. I had placed all my shots into a small circle in the midst of his chest and he was DOA.

My luck held true and none of the projectiles were recovered from this guy. All had gone through and left the area.

[35remington]

Let me add the cautionary note that a lot of the loads posted here (I'm not singling anyone out as many have advised due caution) are not only Plus P but somewhat beyond that to very well beyond that.

Don't try to duplicate some of these loads without checking a loading manual first. If your pistol is not rated for Plus P duplication of the factory Plus P load at standard pressures is certainly not possible with many if not most of the powders used here.

One probably should remember that since 950 fps from a four inch barrel is most certainly Plus P ballistics from a 158 SWC, any velocities that approach or exceed that from shorter barrel lengths are most likely higher pressures than Plus P.

[35remington]

Attributed to SSS (see post under this name on the previous page):

"I've tested the 6.0 PP load with a 158LSWC bullet. From my 642 with 1.87" barrel I got 876fps or 269ft/lbs."

That's just about the velocity I get from my shorties (1 7/8 -2" bbls) using the same charge of Power Pistol and the Lee 158 TLSWC. I should note top end standard charge (not Plus P) is 5.4 grains and gets around 815 fps or so. From a short barrel neither figure is bad.

[Menner]

I will post pics. The Boolits I have recovered so far have been from a boolit trap made from pieces of old tire and rags stacked in a box not sure how this would effect expansion I would like to use something more consistant in density and from what I have read wet magazines make a good media for exspansion testing how thick would I need from say 10 yards (165 gr hp 40cal at 950 fps) I was thinking 8" would be enough but I have never tried any serious expansion testing so that is a shot in the dark.

[35remington]

For a nonexpanding 40 you'll need at least 16-18" of wet phone books. Two feet should stop them for sure. If your HP's do indeed expand you'll need anywhere from 8-14" depending upon just how well they expand. 8" is a bit on the low side.

[dondiego]

" I'm switching to a revolver just because I won't carry a semi-auto with a round chambered".

Why wouldn't you?

[1950Hudson]

With a revolver, don't you have at least five rounds chambered??

[Bonz]

" I'm switching to a revolver just because I won't carry a semi-auto with a round chambered".

Why wouldn't you?

It's specific to my normal CC, a Ruger LCP 380 pocket pistol. The hammer is "pre-cocked" after chambering a round. I have heard of a few instances where it has fired after being jostled around, etc. Ruger has a disclaimer stating that having a round chambered may allow the gun to fire prematurely. The only semi-autos that I have where I could "drop the hammer" are too big to CC, to me anyway. So now I wait for my new CC, a Ruger LCR .357 magnum, which is light, very small and hammerless.

[Bonz]

With a revolver, don't you have at least five rounds chambered??

Most revolvers have a safety feature built-in that make it virtually impossible for a round to fire without pulling the trigger, even if it is dropped.