38 SPL 158 Grain LSWCHP "FBI-Load" Hardness

[HiVelocity]

I would love to find a mold to make my own but no luck so far.

Lee makes a 158gr gas check design bullet that will work fine, #90322. It doesn't make much sense to spend all your hard earned money to "make" (a) custom hollow point mold(s) until you've had time to test what you've put together first and do the R&D with what you have.

I think all of us who handload pistol calibers will agree. Personally, I hand load the NOE 358-135-HP (originally for the 9mm) that drops at .358 over **gr of Titegroup or 231 powder.

HV

[Larry Gibson]

RE the 358156 HP.....I HP mine with the 1/8" Forster HP tool. Been doing that to that bullet since the early '70s. Works slightly better than Winchester or Federal 158 LSWCHPs +P (the "FBI load" back in the day......) at the same velocity from a 4" M15 (930 fps) because I can tailor the HP depth for the expansion wanted. Of course the Forster HP tool can be used on the factory service load to "enhance" expansion......not that I ever did that....or at least carry them on duty........

Larry Gibson

[fcvan]

Years ago, I purchased a Lee C358-158 SWC HP single cavity, back when they made such things. I don't recall when they stopped making HP molds but it has been a while. There may be few of those laying around in the hands of someone who doesn't use theirs and would like to get rid of it. I'm going to hang onto mine.

I had always planned on getting a 2 cavity non HP version but ended up buying the 358-158 RF. I would really like that boolit in HP and may send one of for an HP modification. I don't need it but I want it

[Outpost75]

The FBI 158-grain lead HP +P .38 Special load is still available under the Remington symbol R38S12 or Winchester X38SPD. The equivalent Federal 38G has been discontinued. Alloy was 2% antimonial lead, which when fully cold worked and recrystallized is about 8 BHN. A cast HP of shape similar to #358429 with cavity 0.6 of the meplat diameter, with 15 degree included angle draft on the core pin, cast of 1:40 tin/lead has very similar upset characteristics but is a bit heavier at 162-164 grs. Velocity of the X38SPD with which I am most familiar was 855+/- 30 fps from the 4" SAAMI "vented" test barrel, which simulates revolver ballistics wth a 0.008" cylinder gap.

This velocity is approximated with 158-162-grain cast LHPs using canister powders with either 4.2 grains of Bullseye, 4.8 grs. of W231, 5.2 grs. of Unique or 5.5 grs. of PB, at a minimum cartridge OAL of1.50". All are +P loads!

[Bonz]

Waiting for my new Ruger LCR 357 to arrive. My plan was to load the dreaded "FBI Load .38 Special +P" for my new pocket pistol. I rented one of these a few weeks ago and loved shooting it, except for the full load .357 rounds stinging my hand, lol. My Ruger GP100 is way to big & heavy to CC. Have fired quite a few 38 Special +P out of the GP100 just to test different powders. Believe that the 158gr SWCHP on top of 6gr of PowerPistol is gonna be my first choice. Won't know for sure until I fire a few out of that little 17 oz pocket revolver.

There are probably enough members that would be interested in buying a fancy NOE 158gr SWC HP mold. Could probably sell the other 19 on our site

[chill45100]

Food for thought since the thread is about close range defense loads in a light weight revolver. In the 60's it was popular to load a hollow base wad cutter backwards over a moderate charge of Bulleye's or Red-dot. The penetration wasn't much because energy transfer was nearly complete.

[C. Latch]

This thread interests me. When available I prefer the speer 135-grain gold Dot load but I would love to be able to cobble together some ammo that equaled the old FBI load.

FWIW, and since I'm cheap and already have a jug of 700-x, if I stick with a max load of 700-x (4.4 grains, IIRC, was what I used as max based on the Lyman manual), how much velocity will I be giving up in a 2" snubnose?

[MtGun44]

How about this?



Bill

[Bonz]

i'm just looking for a round that if I was forced to use it, would "probably" not go all the way thru someone and hit someone behind them. the "fbi load" was supposed to be that round.

[Tim357]

Bonz, not sure if you chrono'd your 6.0 PP loads, but my experience is 970 avg from a 3" bbl with Lee 158 RNFP and .38 Special cases

[bhn22]

i'm just looking for a round that if I was forced to use it, would "probably" not go all the way thru someone and hit someone behind them. the "fbi load" was supposed to be that round.

There are no guarantees in life, or bullet performance. This is an admirable goal, but you needs to address your tactics too. You can't just "shoot them a little bit", the ammunition companies can't meet that criteria even with their massive R&D budgets, and complete ballistic labs.

[Bonz]

Bonz, not sure if you chrono'd your 6.0 PP loads, but my experience is 970 avg from a 3" bbl with Lee 158 RNFP and .38 Special cases

I don't have access to a chronograph, just "guessing" because I can't find any load info regarding speed for a barrel as short as the Ruger LCR 357 barrel which is 1.875"

From what I have read so far, out of a .38 special +p case, i'm going to get my fastest speed out of PowerPistol

[Larry Gibson]

Here's what the Winchester "FBI Load" looks like. Note the HP'd bullet is also HB'd. HBN on these runs 5.5 -6 as previously noted. Velocity of 12 shots each out of 23 department 4" barreled M15 S&Ws ran an average of 930 fps (Oehler chronograph with tests run for department records and bullets samples for potential forensics....). Also note the shape of the LSWCHP as it sits in the cavity of a 358156 mould, close to identical profile. 5.5 gr under the 358158 cast of 40-1 and HP'd or the 358477 cast of same alloy and HP'd had identical +P pressures and velocity of 925 fps +/-.

Larry Gibson

Attachment 90101Attachment 90102

[LuckySavage]

I'm gonna stick my neck out here, only because I spent a fair amount of time trying to develop a .357 bullet/load that could be used for whitetails AND self defense. I understand it's all been done before, but this was a learning process for ME. Please feel free to let me know if I'm off base.
I ended up with a .359 WFN 150gr. Boolit cast at an assumed 8 BHN, maybe even softer. (5 lbs. pure PB to 2 oz. tin). In all my testing, which was admittedly backwoods, (shot my 2" S&W, 3 & 4" SP101's thru an old Carhartt w/ a piece of 1/2" plywood inside, in front of 3- 5 gal. Plastic pails of water.
Almost invariably the boolits ended up going thru to the second pail, and were fished out with very little expansion. Same size Jacketed bullets fared even worse, they came out clean as the day they were made, NO expansion whatsoever. Figured 2 things needed to happen- needed to speed the boolit up and entice it to open quicker. Had Erik Ohlen HP one side of my mold, which brought the weight down to 145 gr. and gave reliable expansion at lower velocities. The velocities I refer to are just over 1000 FPS. I was trying to duplicate the venerable FBI load, which I had read many times was fairly warm for .38 Special. Long story longer, I ended up using 7.5 gr. of HS-6 under the HP boolit, averaged 1050 FPS, and got the expansion I was looking for. Wish I could have included pics of the expanded boolits, but I must have melted them already!
NOTE: if you're trying to create a SD round, make sure that you use something like HS-6, or some of the Ramshot powders like Silhouette. They're flash suppressed, and work well. If you go out there with a full load of power pistol or something like it, you're only gonna get one shot in a dark SD situation. You will be blinded by your own muzzle flash, and that doesn't bode well for your extended health.



My fat stubby boolit w/Rimrock 158gr. 358156 for comparison. Dang, pic upside down....

[Larry Gibson]

Didn't the wife complain when you glued them to the ceiling?

Larry Gibson

[MT Gianni]

i'm just looking for a round that if I was forced to use it, would "probably" not go all the way thru someone and hit someone behind them. the "fbi load" was supposed to be that round.

If you ever need to shoot your justification will be to stop the threat against you. You should shoot until the threat is neutralized. Even if you can put 10 shots in the X ring @ 50 yards it will be different when you ar actually being shot at or your life is threatened in another way. The reason LEO's miss frequently is not lack of training but the stress of the situation. The probability is that you would do no better. Get loads that work for what you need them to do without overthinking what might happen. If you are at home shooting at an armed assailant with your kids bedroom as a background you have already done too many things wrong, IMO.

[Bonz]

Must be old age setting in hard, have no idea why I decided to use .38 Special +P cases… New pistola is chambered for .357 and I have plenty of .357 nickel cases to practice with. Now with the .357 cases, I can now try some low power .357 loads: 8.0gr Accurate #5, 10.0gr VV N-105, 6.0gr VV N-340, 6.2gr Win231, etc...

[Bonz]

If you ever need to shoot your justification will be to stop the threat against you. You should shoot until the threat is neutralized. Even if you can put 10 shots in the X ring @ 50 yards it will be different when you ar actually being shot at or your life is threatened in another way. The reason LEO's miss frequently is not lack of training but the stress of the situation. The probability is that you would do no better. Get loads that work for what you need them to do without overthinking what might happen. If you are at home shooting at an armed assailant with your kids bedroom as a background you have already done too many things wrong, IMO.

I agree with you completely. I have pulled a gun twice in my life to defend myself and didn't have to shoot either time, the gun pointed at them was enough to end it. I'm switching to a revolver just because I won't carry a semi-auto with a round chambered.

[bhn22]

Yes, use 357 cases. You'll have more flexibility in load data.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I don't have access to a chronograph, just "guessing" because I can't find any load info regarding speed for a barrel as short as the Ruger LCR 357 barrel which is 1.875"

From what I have read so far, out of a .38 special +p case, i'm going to get my fastest speed out of PowerPistol

I've tested the 6.0 PP load with a 158LSWC bullet. From my 642 with 1.87" barrel I got 876fps or 269ft/lbs. This load created the most energy tested. More than Winchester PDX1 130grain +P and Winchester White Box 125 +P.

Out of a 3" SP101 I got 933fps or 305ft/lbs. With the same 6.0PP load.

I have the lee gas check mould and I cast a few with pure lead. I'd like to test it as a soft point.