38 SPL 158 Grain LSWCHP "FBI-Load" Hardness

[Kuduking]

I did some shooting into Clear Ballistics gel with the FBI .38 Special service loads, and a similar cast bullet handload. Chronograph results are of the actual fired projectiles. Test firearm Ruger Police Service-Six .38 Special stainless revolver with 4" barrel (catalogue GF-84). Temperature 70 F.

The Remington ammunition is about 30 years old, the Federal and Winchester about 25 years old. Stored in controlled conditions.

The handload is about 5 years old, using the Rimrock SWCHP gas-checked cast bullet at a claimed BHN 5. The HS-6 charge is 1/10 grain above the starting charge for a jacketed bullet in the Speer Atomic Manual (Number 8). Primer is Federal 200M.

I have an equivalent jacketed bullet handload, but since this is the Cast Boolits forum, I left it out of the picture, so as not to set off too many members...

Results pictured.

[USSR]

Kuduking,

FWIW, Winchester lists 7.1gr of W540/HS-6 as the maximum load for a 158gr Lead SWC .38 Special +P load.

Don

[Kuduking]

Don,

Thanks. I know you mean well, and there may be newer inexperienced reloaders on here (although this seems to be a more sophisticated membership than the average internet forum). I've been reloading for 45 years, shotshell and metallic rifle/pistol, at least 3 dozen calibres, and scores of firearms. I'm aware of what the various manuals say now, as well as what they have said in the past. I have a bunch of them, plus online resources.

The new data/old data debate is a long-beaten dead horse, especially when it comes to .38 Special. A brief internet search will reveal numerous discussions from experienced reloaders regarding .38 Special load levels, the watering down of factory ammo and reloading data, the history of +P and +P+, the equivalence of .38/44 loads in todays reloading environment, and the strength of modern revolvers (and revolvers from the 1940s too).

Having said that, I'm not recommending anything. My loads are safe in my guns. No one should load anything without careful testing.

YMMV

[USSR]

Don,

Thanks. I know you mean well...

Well, yeah. Anytime I see someone using loads well above Max by using loads based on load data from the Speer #8 Manual, I tend to speak up.

Don

[Kuduking]

Yes, caution should always be exercised when reloading. The novice is best advised to stick to contemporary data, as they don't have the experience or knowledge to judge anything else.

However, Speer never repudiated the Number 8 manual, nor advised not to use the data. The .38 Special data therein was developed in a S&W K-38. Considering that the pre-1957 S&W "Military & Police" K frame revolvers were specifically deemed by S&W to be perfectly fine with factory .38/44 ammunition (which is estimated to have produced 24,000-26,000 cup), there was no reason to repudiate it.




The modern .38 Special +P+ factory loads mentioned above, produce pressure between 23,000 and 25,000 psi. I observed that ammunition being used, without issues, for years in smaller S&W steel J-frame revolvers including Models 36, 49, 60 and 649.

Winchester never sold HS-6, and also hasn't produced a manual in many moons. I'm aware that Winchester 540 is the exact same powder as Hodgdon HS-6.

The Winchester Reloading guide to its credit listed pressure levels for their various loads, something many manuals no longer do, perhaps because they don't want you to know how weak the data is. The last guide I could find to show 540 (HS-6) data is from 1997. Winchester listed a max of 7.1 gr of 540 (HS-6) in .38 Special +P with 158 lead SWC at 17,300 psi. That is well below the SAAMI 20,000 psi limit for .38 Special +P. Using the data they provided under .38 Special, 6.8 gr of 540 (HS-6) with the same bullet produced 15,900 psi.

HS-6, especially at these low pressure levels, has a very reliable pressure curve. Using simple progression, 7.6 gr of 540 (HS-6) produces 19,600 psi, which is still under the SAAMI +P limit.

I won't mention the maximum HS-6 load in the Number 8 manual, but it appears to be under the modern .38 Special +P+ limit as well.

This information may be of interest to the experienced and careful reloader. As always, YMMV.

[Forrest r]

Actually speer has advised not to use the #8 data in their speer manual #10 page 107

[Wireman134]

Actually speer has advised not to use the #8 data in their speer manual #10 page 107

Not true. Speer states only "The data in the Number Eight and earlier Manuals was based on primer appearance, ease of case extraction, and case head expansion. These methods are still valid, and are the only ways the handloader can estimate the saftey of his loads without some rather complicated laboratory equipment. Tosupplement these methods , the SPEER Ballistic Lab Staff, using SAAMI test barrels, standard test barrels, reference ammunition, and copper crushers". etc... No where says not to use data in Speer #8

[mehavey]

See https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post4437398
Use pure lead, or at most 30:1 or 40:1
Effectively pure lead.


FWIW: Binary tin/lead mixes are far softer than "Internet Lore" would have one believe.

.

[rintinglen]

Not true. Speer states only "The data in the Number Eight and earlier Manuals was based on primer appearance, ease of case extraction, and case head expansion. These methods are still valid, and are the only ways the handloader can estimate the saftey of his loads without some rather complicated laboratory equipment. Tosupplement these methods , the SPEER Ballistic Lab Staff, using SAAMI test barrels, standard test barrels, reference ammunition, and copper crushers". etc... No where says not to use data in Speer #8

A phone call to Speer will elicit the advice to put all manuals before #11 in plastic wrap and disregard the data. At least, that is what I was told last year when this topic came up in another thread.

I have used 30-1 for my own efforts and obtained expansion down to the ~800 FPS range from 2" revolvers. I use the MP 359-640 which I highly recommend. Higher temperature for the melt is necessary to get good fill out.