38 SPL 158 Grain LSWCHP "FBI-Load" Hardness

[curioushooter]

I would like to duplicate the 38 SPL "FBI-Load." NOT +P (going ~850 FPS)

I have a Lee tumble-lube semi-wadcutter 158 grain mold. I plan on lathe boring the hollow-point with a d-bit reamer.

I have the brass, powder, etc.

The only think I do not know is exactly what is the optimal hardness. I have read it is supposed to be "soft," but are we talking pure lead soft, some admixture of pure lead and wheelwright, or something else more precise? Does anybody know the BHN of the lead alloy used? From what I understand Remington makes the FBI load still, so that bullet can be tested.

Thanks in Advance,

Anthony

[aarolar]

Watching this one closely

[MtJerry]

What do you plan on shooting it out of? A snub-nose handgun generates far less velocity (and that is the key to expansion in .38 special IMHO) than say a 4" or 6" handgun.

I am assuming you are looking for the performance (man-stopper) that has come to be known with that load. If so, you need to understand that velocity and alloy must be matched to obtain the expansion qualities of that load.

I did a good bit of alloy testing in my Ruger LCR with the Lyman 358439 (the boolit used in the old FBI load). It takes a dead-soft alloy (with enough tin to obtain good mold fill) going at least 950 fps to get reliable expansion.

Here is a link to my expereinces -
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=113158

[lbaize3]

I have been having excellent luck with 4 grains of Winchester 231 powder under 158 grain SWC boolits in my 38 special loads. It does well in snub nose, 3 inch, 4 inch, 6 inch and 8 inch barrel revolvers.

[williamwaco]

I have a Lee tumble-lube semi-wadcutter 158 grain mold. I plan on lathe boring the hollow-point with a d-bit reamer.

The only think I do not know is exactly what is the optimal hardness. I have read it is supposed to be "soft," but are we talking pure lead soft, some admixture of pure lead and wheelwright, or something else more precise?

Anthony

"Soft" doesn't mean pure lead soft. You don't mention where you are going to get your alloy so I will assume maximum flexibility.

If you can, try an alloy of 20/1 lead/tin. This will have a BNH or around 10. It will be a relatively expensive alloy because of the tin cost. 30/1 lead/tin will give you around BNH 8-9. 40/1 is also a popluar old time alloy. It will be very soft.

I buy some pistol range scrap and find it is usually around BNH 9. Most of that hardness comes from antimony instead of lead. It works well in the .357 but is too hard for the .38.

In my experience, you will not get any meaningful expansion of the hollowpoint with wheel weights - BNH 12-14.

If you must start with wheel weights, try 50/50 WW/soft lead.

You will need an ultimate BNH in the range of 8 to 10 depending on barrel length.

Don't worry about leading. If they are lubricated and sized correctly they will not lead. Factory wadcutters I have tested test around BNH 6.


.

[Larry Gibson]

The "FBI 38 SPL load" is a +P load. This a 150 gr LSWC. I have pulled several Winchester bullets and they are dead soft at 5.5 -6 BHN. I use a Lyman 358477 mould and cast them of dead soft lead or at most a 40-1 lead - tin alloy. % gr of Unique give a standard 850 fps load (4" barrel) and 5.5 gr Unique boosts it to +P at 925 fps (4" barrel). Those are measured psi's with an Oehler M43 and velocities out of a 4" M15 S&W. The +P load is the same psi and velocity as the Winchester factory +P load.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

40-1 was used by winchester and remington forever and a day in their lead loads.
44-40,45 colt,38,44 special, and the mags even.
i really hate to say this but lead got it's bad name from many of these factory loads...
it couldn't be the guns themselves.
or you know the 1400 fps loads.

[centershot]

+1 on what Larry said! The factory loads of this type are pure lead, or darn near so! You can cast these slugs from pure lead, just crank up the heat to get good mold fill-out. I load mine over 4.5 of bullseye, it duplicates the factory load. And yes, it leaves a small bit of lead in the barrel, just like the factory load. Easily removed!

[375RUGER]

I loaded mine with 4.1g W231 and a CCI 500, 158g ( I didn't have 150s)
It is supposed to be dead soft lead if memory serves me. And I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that W231 is almost identical to the origianal Winchester power used in "The Load".
I believe that Remington load you mention is one of, if not the softest bullet in this class of ammo. But I wouldn't use that bullet as the basis for hardness unless you know for certain that ammo was made per FBI specs.
probably 6 or 7 BHN is about right.

[mpmarty]

Never heard of an FBI 38spl load. Only FBI load I'm familiar with is a reduced power loading for the 10mm also known as 10 light or 40 short and weak.

[MtGun44]

I have the commercial version, reg P and +P. Rem and Win. both are dead soft lead, near
as I can tell.

Bill

[aarolar]

Why not dead soft? Your only going to shoot 5 times max 10 maybe if you have a speed loader and can use it effectively and you arn't going to lead the barrel to the point of being unusable in 10 shots...

[Got-R-Did]

Well Marty, many of us predate your obviously extensive experience; and I say that with the utmost respect for your Marine background. Started my civilian L.E.O. career with a revolver, after my .45 ACP M1911A1 carry days with the Military Police. I already felt somewhat undergunned when I went through the Academy after leaving the Army and trying to make a living outside the Military. Simply could not understand how some of my classmates could not handle the recoil of the .38 Spl. 148 gr Wadcutter target loads used for training! Once I graduated and earned my Single Officer Car status, I worked diligently to shoot my Python carry weapon with equal accuracy of my previous .45 ACP. As events in history progressed, we were allowed to carry whatever ammunition we could qualify with and I aspired to and quickly earned the right to carry the Federal 125 gr .357 Magnum load (the best of the day). When politics interfered with this and many Dept.s caved under pressure to "stop" miscreants and not neccessarily kill them, we went to the so-called FBI load. The 158 gr. LSWCHP +P gave nearly the same results of ending confrontations in our Department's encounters. This is not to be construed as an endorsement by me, as usually the subject survived the wounds. On an related track, but one that can not be covered here, the 9MM 147 Sub-Sonic FBI loads for Duty Carry semi-auto pistols were an abysmal failure.
Back to the 158 gr LSWCHP +P loads I used and shot in qualification. They were relatively soft, very accurate, and effective for the purpose of stopping the aggression of anyone on the other end of the muzzle. I have two boxes remaining from my days of actually carrying them to protect me and the Public. They have their place in this world for everyone depending on them to protect one's life. I like them because they are easy to control in smaller revolvers and they are effective in the ultimate desired end result. Better rounds out there now for self defense, yes, but for the average boolit caster that can build an unlimited supply to work with, it is still a good choice.
Got-R-Did.

[mpmarty]

No offense Got-R and thanks for the education. I have never been in Law Enforcement and had no knowledge of the specific round you discuss. I agree the 9mm is a very poor performer as carried (or used to be carried) by LEOs nationwide. This fact is the reason for the 10mm and finally the 40 S&W. I, personally still carry a 45acp but not in the 1911 as I find it just too heavy to pack around all day and feel more comfortable with an eleven round polymer snubby.

[Bret4207]

There have been several "FBI Loads" in several calibers. Some worked great, some were dismal.

Re the OP- IME a simple load of 5.0 Unique behind that 158 LSWC will do about all you could ask of a 38 Special in lighter framed guns. In K/L/N frames you can up it towards 5.5. I haven't had a lot of good results with getting HP's to open under 1K fps.

[curioushooter]

I think I will try with some pure lead and a bit of 50/50 tin/lead solder to achieve decent mold fill out per Mt. Jerry. This is exactly what I was thinking would work. It will be lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox as it is a tumble lube groove design, and it is out of a 2.5" Colt.

[fredj338]

I have the commercial version, reg P and +P. Rem and Win. both are dead soft lead, near
as I can tell.

Bill

Yep, swaged lead bullets. I have the Rem, Win & a few Federal left. All expand the same runnign +p vel within 15fps of each other. I think any diff will be in the HP shape. Nothing wrong shooting dead soft lead @ 900fps. If you add a bit of tin, like 30-1 ratio, they'll still expand down to 800fps w/ the right HP design.

[Boolseye]

I use a 50/50 mix of range lead (bhn around 12) and pure lead for my expanding bullets, but I drive them a bit hotter, 900-1000fps. They mushroom good and penetrate well, too.

[Bonz]

I've been buying the 158 gr. SWC-HP ( 5 bhn ) with gas check from Rim Rock Bullets. I would love to find a mold to make my own but no luck so far.

[bhn22]

Lyman 358156 HP. Be prepared to spend over a hundred dollars for one. Plan B: watch NOEs page for a gascheck design to come available in and RG@ configuration. Plan C: find a clean 358156 mold and send it to Hollowpoint Mold Service for conversion. You'll still have a hundred bucks in it, but that'll likely happen whatever you do.