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Thread: Reloading a fired primer

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy BossHoss's Avatar
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    Once the exact "crush" height of the re-adjusted anvil is determined, the crush device can be adjusted as such.

    When I set out to do this, I will test in many ways...not the least of which would be how sensitive they are , with many handling tests of dummy shells .

    Just for my own experience...YMMV.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post


    Any suggestions? Anybody wanna do a little testing?
    A toy cap has less than 1/2 of the powder needed for reliable use in small pistol/rifle boxer primers. A large rifle primer should have about 0.6 grains of powder in them. As it shows in the picture a Super Bang cap has less then 0.2 grains.

    The proper way to solve this & still use a toy cap is to add a booster charge(BP if nothing else) in the primer. This has been tested many times & by some forum members. Winchester also patented a similar method years ago.

  3. #43
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    Jim: Plenty of empty heads around, no need to look very far.

    As far as the mixing of powder goes, I think the idea was to not shake the loaded cartridges up. I know the load was just about a full case of powder, and then they stuffed dacron in to take up the slack.

    I personally don't like the idea of duplex loads for exactly the same reason, but in a pinch it's good to know how to do it, and why you'd need to.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  4. #44
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    W W Greeners book has a formula for priming mixture it is potassium chlorate, charcoal,and sulfur the potassium chlorate is wetted first then mixed and gum arabic added for a binder. this would be placed wet then dried for a primer. Many roll caps use this formula along with the other formula containing red phosphorous. There are non corrosive compounds that can be used however I am not sure on how sensitive they are one to look into would be Barium Chlorate I have heard of silver fulminate being used also but never had a reason to research it.
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  5. #45
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    Scrap silver fulminate it sounds like recoil may set off unchambered rounds in a repeating firearm!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_fulminate
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    after reading the posts I believe that a muzzleloader caplock would be a way to go to reload the hat style caps. As everyone knows ML's need a good cleaning after shooting anyhow.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefly1957 View Post
    W W Greeners book has a formula for priming mixture it is potassium chlorate, charcoal,and sulfur the potassium chlorate is wetted first then mixed and gum arabic added for a binder. this would be placed wet then dried for a primer. Many roll caps use this formula along with the other formula containing red phosphorous. There are non corrosive compounds that can be used however I am not sure on how sensitive they are one to look into would be Barium Chlorate I have heard of silver fulminate being used also but never had a reason to research it.
    Loading wet is a much safer way to do it and, IMO, you get a more reliable primer.

    But, you do need more equipment. When you load dry you can just fill the cup and when you compress it, you have cup that is 1/2 full(just right). When you load wet you have to use some sort of measuring device. FWIW, for wet I use a plate with a the desired thickness and the diameter hole.

    If you use barium chlorate, you still have a corrosive primer. While we(the US) copied the Germans for non-corrosive primers, the French and to a certain extent the Japanese went a different way. They use lead azide.

    While, lead azide is about the easiest one for someone in the US to obtain, as the need sodium azide is use in many of the air bags in our cars. It does have a couple of disadvantages. One being that it is somewhat unpredictable when it explodes & years ago when they using it in the US they would end up with blown primer & worse. I don't know how the French and Japanese solved that problem. Also, sodium azide is very poisonous and the proper method of handling it should be done. FWIW, on a different forum I'm a member of one of the members did poison himself with it & was reported to have died because of that.

    DDNP, diazo-dinitrophenol, was used during WW2 by Western & Winchester for military primers(M1 carbine if memory serves) reasonably successfully. This about the easiest one for someone to make. See manual TM 31-210 for the details. Also, many of the "green" primers that have been available of the last several years use this instead of lead styphnate.

    Lead-nitro- hypophosphite works well in rimfire and Berdan primers. But in a boxer primer there isn't enough room for a large enough charge that reliably ignites the powder. It is very safe to use, because it doesn't exist until the primer has dried out. It is formed only when the charge is in the primer. See "Ammunition Making" by G. Frost and Imperials patents. The "difficult" chemical needed to make it is available from Midway(the one us reloader know) for use in plating. MSDS's are ones friend.

    Sulfur nitride should work, but I don't know of it ever being tried by the industry. And I haven't gotten around to trying it. The needed chemicals are available in any store and the equipment is simple. DIY if you need to.

    There are also several others.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master kodiak1's Avatar
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    Man I remember my Dad doing this and me watching him 50 plus years ago!
    He was doing it because he claimed we couldn't afford to waste money.
    I remember him cutting the white part off the matches with a razor blade to do that.
    His punch was a cut off nail!!!!!!!!
    Crude but effective.

    If one had to do it to survive one could.
    Great read
    Ken.
    Ken.

    Be nice if it was better, but it could be worse

  9. #49
    Boolit Buddy
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    If you wanted a good hot primer you could dribble 4f Black powder into the primer after replacing the caps and the anvil till it was full ,then seat it in the case with a piece of typing paper over the pocket hole .The primer will punch through the paper and make a sealed off flash hole that the primer pop would flash through . Arnie

  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy ReloaderEd's Avatar
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    Hang fires can be dangerous using the home made primers. However, obviously if one were in the position that either make them or don't have ammo I can see the reason for doing this. I keep coming up with a comment my boss said once in an email. Someone has too much time on their hands.
    I rotate my stock of primers, usually 500 of each type I use so usually have fresh ones on hand . Why? I guess the old saying about keepping ones powder dry goes along with the reason. Be Safe

  11. #51
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    I have enjoyed reading through this and it sure brings back memories of the stories my pop used to tell me of when he was growing up through the end of the depression and the rationing during WW2. HE was from a large family of 10 kids, and his pop was killed when they were pretty young. Times were tough and they did what needed to be done to put food on the table. As such they made their own BP and used what ever was available and would fit down the muzzle of the old shotgun they had for hunting or getting pelts to sell when they had the chance. Some of his stories sure did put quite a few ideas in my head, and a few of those ideas sure resulted in a warmed up bottom end. It DID always make me wonder why it was alright that he did these things, but so wrong when I did them. His motto was as always, do as I say not as I do, or did, or might. Any one of these always seemed to fit when I got caught. LOL

    Growing up we always loaded our own ammo, just a part of pop's history made this the thing to do. As such we were always brought back to the tough times when we would sit down and start on a batch of loads. As such I was interested at a young age in all things that went boom as well as the space program which was in full swing. Back in my pre and early teens, I built plenty of model rockets. As such I eventually as most inquisitive kids do, investigated how the motors worked. During this time I had also acquired both a 45 caliber BP cannon and a Hawkins rifle kit which I had built, and had both fff and ff BP on hand. (Some of pop's old stories came to to mind and that's when it got interesting.) Being that the solid propellant pills in the rocket motors looked pretty close to the BP I used it was only a matter of time before I started to look into making my own reloads for them as well.

    What I ended up doing was to take a small amount of the FFF BP, and in a glass bowl I slowly wet it down with distilled water, slowly mashing it up really well until it was of a thin pasty consistency. ( In doing this, I couldn't help but remember my pop blowing up my grandma's rabbit hutch while making up a batch of powder for their shotgun.) Anyway, once here it was easily poured into a mold of which I had made from pvc pipe, where it could be tightly compressed from either end using a c-clamp with a small wooden dowels inserted in each end. This formed the muddy mix into a solid pill just the right diameter to fit back into the used motor casing, and after drying for a couple of days, was ready to load into the used motor casing. As to be expected there were a few issues with this method, but it only took a few tests to figure out that by adding in a bit of very fine sawdust, or corn starch to the mix we could somewhat effectively slow the burn rate to allow us to at least launch our rockets in a pinch. We also got tired of waiting several days for the pills to dry and started to use rubbing alcohol as the wetting agent. This we found to be much faster and only took around 24hrs of drying verses the couple of days it sometimes took for the water mix.

    This all said, and to relate it to the primer thread, if one was needing to add a charge to the primers, this might be a very easily done thing using a similar method as above. If rubbing alcohol is used instead of water, to mix the BP, it evaporates very quickly. If one has access to a small syringe like used to give pets medicine with, the mix is easily squirted out in a controlled manner to what ever amount you wanted to use. It has to be noted however, that the mix will be thinner in the beginning and thicken up as it is squirted out, as the moister portion will go out first. This said it only takes one or two test to figure out at about where this occurs and could easily be regulated.

    If one wanted to produce a larger quantity, they could, as described above, use a drilled plate and simply spread the mix across it. Once the mix was spread out use a second flat plate to smear it around and then clamp it to the top, which would compress the wet mix until it dried. Once dried, tap the plate to allow the pellets to drop out on a cloth. This would allow you to have the tiny pellets ready made by the batch ready to drop into the primer cups.

    This would still be in the corrosive dept just as most BP is, but it would possibly allow, if needed, to have a additive that would stay in place in the cups if needed.
    Later,
    Mike / TX

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Shotshell (209) primers are a horse of an entirely different color. The primers I experimented with are those used in metallic cases.
    Understood. I see your direction now. I simply was not sure if you were being specific to large/small primers or primers in general.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
    If you wanted a good hot primer you could dribble 4f Black powder into the primer after replacing the caps and the anvil till it was full ,then seat it in the case with a piece of typing paper over the pocket hole .The primer will punch through the paper and make a sealed off flash hole that the primer pop would flash through . Arnie
    That is a much better way then making a duplex powder load in the case.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnie View Post
    If you wanted a good hot primer you could dribble 4f Black powder into the primer after replacing the caps and the anvil till it was full ,then seat it in the case with a piece of typing paper over the pocket hole .The primer will punch through the paper and make a sealed off flash hole that the primer pop would flash through . Arnie
    Arnie, that's a SPLENDID idea!

    Questions: How would one go about handling the open primer with the loose 'flash' powder in it without spilling it? I'm trying to visualize actually picking up the primer, set it in a priming arm and seat it without spilling the powder.

    Would you charge the primer with the 'flash' powder AFTER it's placed in the priming arm?

    I wonder if it would be feasible to charge the primer and place a small piece of cellophane(Scoth) tape over the primer while it's still on the bench. You suppose the hole in the shell holder would shear off the tape at the diameter of the primer?

    Your idea has the ol' wheels turnin' again!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41mag View Post

    If one wanted to produce a larger quantity, they could, as described above, use a drilled plate and simply spread the mix across it. Once the mix was spread out use a second flat plate to smear it around and then clamp it to the top, which would compress the wet mix until it dried. Once dried, tap the plate to allow the pellets to drop out on a cloth. This would allow you to have the tiny pellets ready made by the batch ready to drop into the primer cups.
    Beside safety, the problem with putting a dry pellet into the the cup is that a pellet of the size need would be crushed by the anvil. This could result there being little or no compound under the anvil.

    What you do is:

    Have a plate that holds the cups & a matching one for the wet compound.

    Fill the compound plate much as you state.

    Then immediately set the compound plate over the cup plate. And carefully push the wet pellet into the cup.

    Then either replace the anvil or press the pellet. If you press the pellet it's best to have paper between the pellet and the punch. The paper is to keep any of the compound from sticking to the punch.

    This is how one can do it in a safe and obtain a very repeatable result.

    I like the idea of using syringe. Just one of the benefits I can see doing that way is making it safer.

    The clean up afterwards is the main thing to do to stay safe.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post


    I wonder if it would be feasible to charge the primer and place a small piece of cellophane(Scoth) tape over the primer while it's still on the bench. You suppose the hole in the shell holder would shear off the tape at the diameter of the primer?

    Your idea has the ol' wheels turnin' again!
    I bet that the tape would. I'm going to try it right now.

    Edit:

    It worked. The tape sheared fine. I tested the cartridge and the show a positive result. I didn't do a comparative pressure test or vel test.

    For me the only down side was the extra time, but that may not apply to everyone.
    Last edited by perotter; 01-02-2012 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Just tested it

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderEd View Post
    Hang fires can be dangerous using the home made primers. However, obviously if one were in the position that either make them or don't have ammo I can see the reason for doing this. I keep coming up with a comment my boss said once in an email. Someone has too much time on their hands.
    I rotate my stock of primers, usually 500 of each type I use so usually have fresh ones on hand . Why? I guess the old saying about keepping ones powder dry goes along with the reason. Be Safe
    I had to chuckle a little on that one. Five hundred of each on hand, and so they "stay fresh". I'm feeling a little "poorly" because my stash has dropped a little below 20,000. Some of the primers I'm using came from my mother-inlaw's third husband's estate. They were purchased, according to the date written on the boxes, as far back as 1974. They work just fine. There were right at 29,000 of them when I got them and they account for about 10,000 of my current inventory.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwana View Post
    They were purchased, according to the date written on the boxes, as far back as 1974. They work just fine. There were right at 29,000 of them when I got them and they account for about 10,000 of my current inventory.
    And if you haven't used them up by then, they should be good in 2074 or beyond.

    The more I've done making them & working on new compounds, the more respect I've gained for the people who make the one's we buy.

    Whether it's the chemist that invented in, the techs that tested & perfected the mix or the person who works on the production line. The do make a great product at,IMO, a reasonable price.

  19. #59
    Boolit Buddy
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    Jim ,looks like the tape idea would work ,or just be real steady and careful setting the primer in the seater . Arnie

  20. #60
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    Arnie, thanks for doing the research on that.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check