An even smaller bullet shooter ?

[skullmount]

Gents,

I mostly lurk, reading when time permits. I fool around with White ml's. I like the smaller caliber fast twist guns & just love Swiss black...

I sent a pm to waksupi looking for some input about where to post a thread on this............so here goes !


To the idea & questions;

Looking for opinions, input, your knowledge, experience and what else you would be willing to share on a smaller caliber, bullet shooting muzzleloader. Seems like there are lots of Lyman/Ideal moulds that might work without having a custom mould cut………………..
I have read and re-read Ned Roberts, "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" ...........has been a real eye opener in some areas as far as the ml goes, but lacks any real substance when it comes to twist information.


Looking at doing a smaller caliber muzzleloader. Something in the 30-32 caliber area.
Barrels that are available & might work ???
.32-20, bore is .305, groove is .312, twist is 16
.32-40, bore is .315, groove is .323, twist is 16
.32spec, bore is .315, groove is .321, twist is 14

I thought that the faster twist barrels would foul too quick.?


Most likely would need a false muzzle type of bullet starter like ones in Ned Roberts, based on what I have read.

Maybe I am all wet !?

Fire away !

[StrawHat]

I have a 32 flintlock I built in the 70s. It uses a PRB and has a 1/66 twist. The barrel came from Golden Age Arms but was made by Douglas (I think).

Are you planning on PRB or boolits? From your twists and mention of the false muzzle, I would guess boolits. If going that route, pick a weight and match the twist to the weight.

[excess650]

It sounds like you need to read up on the early cartridge schuetzen rifles. Schalk, Pope, Peterson, Schoyen, etc were some of makers. Pope used gain twist rifling. IIRC, the early rules didn't allow for cleaning between shots, and they were still using blackpowder at the time.

32 Spl was regarded to be superior over the 30-30 due to its slower rilfing twist and ability (because of) to use BP. 1-16" is slow compared to the faster than 1-10" used in the 8x57mm.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Why don't you go to page 1 of the muzzleloading forum, look at the topics, read any that look related, then go to page 2, and so on.

There are several thousands of pages in this forum if you bother to look. It is like reading an informative book, a page at a time. I know that I have many M/L posts on the 32 caliber muzzleloading rifles going back ten years or better and many others here have such posts .

As an alternative, you could learn to operate the search function and set your specific parameters for a search.


The smaller caliber guns you love, as in 32 caliber in a muzzloader are not fast twist, typically the 1/48 is fastest and they are round ball guns.

The calibers and twists you listed are for cartridge guns, where the projectile is an elongated lead or jacketed bullet, loaded from the breech, AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FIREARM.

After you read enough you may have viable questions at that time. Right now, they appear unintelligible.

Baron von Trollwhack

[451 Pete]

Skullmount,
I am thinking that I can maybe help but I need a bit more information for what exactly you would like to do. Ned Roberts book covers a large spectrum of ML rifles. Some are strictly bench, some are offhand and some may be used for both. Any of these rifles can be built given enough time and of course a bit of money. You also did not say if this is something you want to build and tackle yourself or something to have built.

Smaller calibers tend to foul more quickly than the larger ones and shallow grooves foul more quickly than deeper ones.

Rifles with a false muzzle are loaded from a bench. A false muzzle serves several purposes. It protects the muzzle end of the barrel from damage in loading and cleaning and it serves as a tapered lead in to the rifling for your bullet. To be properly made the false muzzle is cut off from the barrel blank and pinned to the barrel before the barrel is rifled. ( Not something I had done but I got lucky and mine still will shoot a paper patch. The false muzzle should be rifled with the barrel so as to have a perfect fit and alignment to the rifling. )

I had a Schuetzen rifle built a few years back with a false muzzle. As requested by some here I posted pictures of this rifle on a thread started by buckshot on a match with a .58 rifle a couple of weeks ago on this muzzle loading forum. I don't know that this is exactly what you are intending to have made or want to build. This rifle uses a .38 cal. Green Mtn. barrel of 1-14 twist to stabilize a 325 grain paper patch bullet. More information on this rifle can be found in buckshots thread.

Probably the best place for you to see the type of rifles your interest is in, is either at the spring or fall shoots held in Friendship Indiana by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. At these match's you will find light and heavy bench rifles shooting round ball, slug guns ( up to 60 lbs. in weight ) shooting two part swaged bullets and paper patch and other schuetzen rifles like mine on the firing line.

Hope this helps .... Pete

[wgr]

TC. made a rifle at one time in 32 and 36cal. with a faster twist. the twist was 1-32 i think it would shoot maxie balls great. i think a 1-32 are 1-28 would be as fast as you would want to go

[scrapcan]

451 Pete,

Glad you saw this thread as the first thing that came to my mind was your input when I started reading. Your info in Buckshot's thread really opened some thought for me and just entertainment of learning new stuff on the subject after that eye opener.

Here is a link to Buckshot's original thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134390

A question, I have been reading stuff on Chunk guns and it seams this is the same or similar topic. Is that correct?

[Good Cheer]

Skullmount,
Reading your original post makes me believe that you are thinking of making a muzzle loader with a relatively small bore to take an elongated bullet. Operating on that basis I will offer the following.

(1) Single shot rifles in 357 magnum or 38-55 could be great test beds to experiment with before investing funds in a custom muzzle loader. Perhaps even muzzle loading a single shot 30-30 might be worth trying out.

(2) One of the difficulties with muzzle loading bullets is getting bore diameter, barrel twist, bullet sizer and available molds to work together. My solution was to find a barrel maker to produce a .458" bore diameter barrel. That way there's a big bunch of molds floating around to choose from. The same might also work out for an even smaller bore.

(3) I'd better be careful or I'm gonna talk myself into another project. That small bore single shot as a muzzle loader is already giving me the itch.

[nanuk]

Good Cheer

do you load the SS .357 rifle with an empty, primed cartridge and then load from the muzzle?

I've thought about the same thing. wondering if it were plausible. I would think it could work, as long as you made sure your powder load would keep the boolit in the bore.

[nanuk]

Why don't you go to page 1 of the muzzleloading forum, look at the topics, read any that look related, then go to page 2, and so on.

There are several thousands of pages in this forum if you bother to look.
.....
As an alternative, you could learn to operate the search function and set your specific parameters for a search.
......
After you read enough you may have viable questions at that time. Right now, they appear unintelligible.

Baron von Trollwhack

BvT: the tone of your reply appears to be a little condescending.

one of the BIGGEST problems with this forum, et al, is the HUGE amount info available that is NOT relevent to the OP's query.

one could spend Hundreds of hours reading nothing posts trying to find anything that is applicable

and the SEARCH function is a poor option, if you are looking for something general. it won't let you search for a 3character search, and multiple words usually return Nothing for me.

Sometimes Google works but seldom.

So usuallly the best is to ASK questions on here.

Remember, Even YOU were a Noob at this at one time.

if everyone quit asking questions, and only used the search function, read each and every thread, and then started on the Archives, this place would become BORING real quick.

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer

do you load the SS .357 rifle with an empty, primed cartridge and then load from the muzzle?

I've thought about the same thing. wondering if it were plausible. I would think it could work, as long as you made sure your powder load would keep the boolit in the bore.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That's what Paul Matthews wrote about doing with a Ruger single shot 45-70, muzzle loading it to be a paper patched 45-120!
So much fun left to have!

[Good Cheer]

Oh, and as a passing thought, could bottle necked cartridge single shot be made to work? Perhaps the case could be filled and drilled to provide a straight cylindrical interior? Just a thought. Was thinking if maybe a 7-08 could be made to work that way.

[451 Pete]

manleyjt,
Good to hear from you. As the ML rifle developed it branched out into a number of different forms. Each separate branch eventually evolved into a special type or group of rifles best suited for a particular type or style of shooting. The Chunk Gun and the Chunk Gun match's developed from one of these branch's in the mid to late 1800's. The " Chunk " is the log or rest that a shooter uses to shoot prone from.

At Friendship a typical Chunk Gun can be of any weight using fixed sights and with either flint or percussion ignition and shooting a round ball at a target of 60 yds. distance. No false muzzles or sealed ignition systems are allowed. The wiinner of a match is determined by the old string measurement system, this being the distance from the center of target to exact center of the bullet hole. There have been some three shot match's won in Chunk Gun competition at Friendship with a string measurement of less than 1 inch! ( Think Gary Cooper in Sgt. York. )

The type of rifle you may have been thinking of is the Bench Rifle. Bench Rifles are generally more of a precision instrument for the shooting of patched round balls. Here all shooting is off of a bench rest. Although most of the match's are shot at 50 yds. in some of the unlimited matchs these Bench rifles can be scope mounted and some targets and match's are shot out to 200 yds.

A Slug Gun is the term applied to rifles shooting bullets rather than round balls off of a bench. Some rifles shoot 2 piece bullets with soft bases and hardened noses that are swedged together. Targets at Friendship for Slug Guns are shot out to 500 yds.

I don't personally own or shoot any of these. Although the Slug Gun has a certain attraction to me my plate is pretty full with what I already shoot and do. Maybe some day.

Take care .... Pete

[nanuk]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That's what Paul Matthews wrote about doing with a Ruger single shot 45-70, muzzle loading it to be a paper patched 45-120!
So much fun left to have!

once a case if fireformed and belled just enough that it will barely fit in the chamber, it for sure would make a good seal

this is something worth looking into further. Could a bottle neck cartridge be handled in the same way? There are bottleneck BP rounds.

or the filling an drilling would probably work well, just a smaller chamber, but you could just add some powder up the bore a bit for a slight increase if needed.

[skullmount]

Thanks for the responses so far! Keep 'em coming

Would the false muzzle "need" to have grooves ?

I have been going back and forth on a .375 or something in the .32 area for a while, since I have 2 .350 bullet shooters already, I thought with the moulds available around .311 to .330 something could be sized to just engage the lands/grooves.
Keep the ideas coming !

[451 Pete]

nanuk and good cheer,
The type of loading method you are talking about has been done in the past and is attributed to Harry Pope. Many of the old cartridge schuetzen rifles shot at the range at Walnut Hill used this method of loading. A loaded case is inserted in the chamber and then the bullet is ran down the barrel from the muzzle to just sit on top of the case.

While this method of loading was known to produce some quite accurate groups I do not believe that any modern range will allow it for safety reasons. Think about it. You are pushing a bullet down on a loaded and primed case and relying on your rifles safety while leaning over the muzzle.

just my thoughts ... Pete

[Baron von Trollwhack]

BvT: the tone of your reply appears to be a little condescending.

one of the BIGGEST problems with this forum, et al, is the HUGE amount info available that is NOT relevent to the OP's query.

one could spend Hundreds of hours reading nothing posts trying to find anything that is applicable

and the SEARCH function is a poor option, if you are looking for something general. it won't let you search for a 3character search, and multiple words usually return Nothing for me.

Sometimes Google works but seldom.

So usuallly the best is to ASK questions on here.

Remember, Even YOU were a Noob at this at one time.

if everyone quit asking questions, and only used the search function, read each and every thread, and then started on the Archives, this place would become BORING real quick.

Nanuk, Only intelligent questions get intelligent answers in the real world.

We have folks falling all over themselves now speculating on what the question really was. Baloney on your hundreds of hours, and other forums(et al), assertion although I suppose some might really need that much time searching out a defined topic anywhere.

One can scan pages, and titles and move on effortlessly and quickly to the next page on CB. That's why books have indexes and page numbers, and this forum provides for titles and a variety of search parameters that books never had. I did not suggest he read every thread.

I didn't refer him to google . That's not relevant to your complaint of my response. That is your problem.

The inquiry was asking about small caliber muzzloading and his question was confused so I suggested he look here first and refered to two methods of doing that. That's help. Just think what he would have found about small caliber m/ls in the first walk through through a hundred pages of titles to inquire into before proceeding to the next. A little understanding would let the inquirer ask intelligent questions from which more specific information might be gained. Your suggesting he was unable to search because did not know what look for doesn't mean that skilled responders should struggle to figure out the posters specific lack of knowledge and fill it. That's A Johnny Carson Swami answer without the hat.

Yes I was once a noob, but one who has expended significant time and effort in directed learning and experience on a hobby. A newcomer would do very well here searching out a topic of intrest.

BvT

[Good Cheer]

nanuk and good cheer,
The type of loading method you are talking about has been done in the past and is attributed to Harry Pope. Many of the old cartridge schuetzen rifles shot at the range at Walnut Hill used this method of loading. A loaded case is inserted in the chamber and then the bullet is ran down the barrel from the muzzle to just sit on top of the case.

While this method of loading was known to produce some quite accurate groups I do not believe that any modern range will allow it for safety reasons. Think about it. You are pushing a bullet down on a loaded and primed case and relying on your rifles safety while leaning over the muzzle.

just my thoughts ... Pete

Good thoughts.
Would definitely rather do this with a H&R single shot than with a Ruger No.3.

[451 Pete]

Good Cheer,
Ha! OK, I'll bite ...... What is the difference? A safety is a mechanical device that can fail. A loaded gun is a loaded gun, enter the human factor and the potential for an accident I would think would be the same for either rifle.

Pete

[skullmount]

Nanuk, Only intelligent questions get intelligent answers in the real world.


The inquiry was asking about small caliber muzzloading and his question was confused so I suggested

Yes I was once a noob, but one who has expended significant time and effort in directed learning and experience on a hobby. A newcomer would do very well here searching out a topic of intrest.

BvT

BvT,

With all due respect, as I mentioned in my first post "I lurk" I have read and searched quite a bit over the years here and other places. No I don't have thousands of posts.....but I do have more muzzleloaders than I can put in my current safe, you might not approve as all are fast twist guns and I haven't pulled the trigger on a round ball in years.......I cast bullets...and shoot them, thats why I lurk here and post a bit.

From where I sit you are the only one who was "confused" scolding me about 32 caliber being a slower twist gun and YELLING about AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FIREARM.

Go back and reread my post. The substance was picked up by everyone else who posted in this thread. I am looking for opinions too.

My apologies to others who have responded in a positive manner.