LLA VS. Jakes purple Ceresin

[Love Life]

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[Freightman]

LLA seem to work for me but what do I know. I even use it in my 45/70 to 1500fps, no more than that, not because of the lube but because that is all my body will take. HAHA

[hoosierlogger]

How was the accuracy with the LLA?

[Vly]

Your test and experience here are interesting. But before folks jump to too many conclusions let me relate a similiar experience.

I have never used Jakes, so don't let this post be interpreted as a defense for that lube.

Back awhile ago ( maybe 10 - 12 yrs ago ) , I did a similar test. I will name the lubes because I want everyone to understand it is not the "lube" but the bore condition that is the important factor.

Back then I was shooting alot of 308Win in a heavy barrel M700 with 36x glass. I was getting some impressive groups at 100 yds. My lube of choice at that time was LBT Soft. Around the same time Felix posted his recipe and Veral was having some legal problems. I started experimenting with Felix Lube ( FWFL ) . I had good results in some other cartridges and then substituted Felix Lube for LBT Soft in my favorite 308Win load. Everything in my load was the same except for Felix lube. Results on target were dismal. I mean they sucked.

So began my education in what I have come to understand as "bore condition". Different lubes create different conditions within the barrel which influence accuracy.

The short story is I found that a slight adjustment to my powder charge ( in my case slightly less powder ) returned the accuracy I had had previously with LBT Soft. The initial, uneducated conclusion might have been that Felix Lube sucked. My experience with Felix lube since that time has proven that it performs quite well. ( I have made up many batches since that time, all worked well )

The thing to take from this is cast boolit loads are a complex system and changing one component of the load may require a complete rework of the load. My opinion is that in low velocity loads these variables are less critical. But move above roughly 1200- 1300 fps and a component change can have a very negative effect.

My suggestion is you try to redevelop the load using the new lube and see if you can't attain the same accuracy level. I suspect with a little tweaking you can get the new lube to perform as well as the old.

[noylj]

The first question is did you size the bullets in you new Lube-A-matic?
If so, that could be the cause of your "failure." You need to keep all variables but one the same. You might try hand-lubing or pan lubing your as-cast bullets with the blue and see how they do.
I learned about 25 years ago that my guns tended to shoot as-cast better than sized, even if the bullet was 0.004" oversized.
I then got some sizing dies for my lubrisizer that were 0.001-0.002 large than my as-cast diameter. Had some problems with lube oozing out around the bullet if I put too much pressure on the lube.
Never did well with pan lubing, but when I found LLA, I am been very happy. My only issue now is shooting indoors the smoke can make me cough.
I plan to try the 45:45:10 or even just JPW for my next bullets, particularly for .45ACP and light .40 loads. I am really hoping that there will be a commercial source for it soon.
I know that using only Rooster Jacket has been pretty much a failure for me (leading was a bit more than with LLA, but my groups increase by 50-100%) and I was hoping to boil off the water and use the wax to cut the LLA, sort of like JPW, but I have heard that someone has tried it and it didn't process or perform well. I would like something like 25% LLA and 75% wax, provided a solution in mineral spirits or naphtha can be established.
I mean, I use so little LLA on my bullets that you can't even see it on the bullet (but you can feel just the slightest tackiness so you know it is there). I have no problems with tackiness, just the smoke indoors irritating my throat.

[357maximum]

Alot of the glaring successes you read about on the net with LLA has more to do with keeping the boolit fatter in my opinion. Alot of people are not sizing with LLA and when they get a sizer they get a standard die and smooooosh their boolits too small and their groups get bigger. All things being equal is the only way to compare. Apples to oranges is one thing, but when you start comparing apples to onions it can lead to some crazy conclusions.

[fredj338]

The first question is did you size the bullets in you new Lube-A-matic?
If so, that could be the cause of your "failure." You need to keep all variables but one the same. You might try hand-lubing or pan lubing your as-cast bullets with the blue and see how they do.
.

I have to agree, it sounds like a sizing issue w/ the Jake's but there are so many variables. Unless everything is the same, then the test is not really telling you waht yo uwant to know. I would size the LLA bullets the same or pan lube w/ Jakes & see if there is a diff then.

[357maximum]

All 100 boolits fired were sized in the kyman 4500 with a .452 sizing die. The 50 I hand dipped were sized through the lyman while it was cold. The ones lubed with Jakes purple were sized/lubed per the lyman instructions. So they were both sized through the same die. All the boolits were cast from the same pot during one session. I did not just grab a few boolits here and there before trying this. I utilized as many controls as I could.
This is not the definitive test of how lube performs, but my experience with with my gun, boolits, and loads. If any of you are in the northern california area you are more than welcome to accompany me on my next test.

I have used Jakes purple ceresin in most of my rifles and had dismal results also. Just wanted to make sure it was a fair test with your 45 and now it seems there is a pattern afoot. That lube is what I personally call "crayon lube". Of those "crayon lubes" only one has ever done me well and that was Lyman orange magic and even that benefitted from being softened with vasoline or alox 350. When you get to a slightly "wetter" lube such a Lars B.A.C or a soft lube like LBT soft or MML things improved for me by leaps and bounds.

[RobS]

Jakes lubes are hard except their 50/50. I've tried their purple and moly ceresin lubes and had similar experiences as the original poster. I believe it is just too hard to flow from the lube grooves upon firing. I've used softer lubes and have had much better results with the same reload with the exception of my rifle rounds regarding leading. The softer lubes did better accuracy wise in both the handgun and rifle rounds vs jakes hard lubes. The 45 auto bullets I recovered with Jakes lubes still had lube in the grooves and un-evenly at that; I credit this along with the leading to the accuracy being worse.

[kelbro]

Another factor when comparing wax lubes to LLA is the temperature. Wax lubes often respond differently at different ambient and barrel temps where LLA doesn't seem to care.

[357maximum]

Petroleum Jelly would make a better agent to fix them purple crayons in my opinion. Alox 350 would work too, but that would need to be ordered and for a few sticks why bother?


The recipe for MML is in the lube recipe thread and it was designed to meet LBT softblue and ended up exceeding it accuracy wise. Not really trying to toot my own horn, but it is my recommendation. I do not live in a desert and neither does Babore who had a large hand in the final mix design of MML........... it was designed right here in humid ol' Michigan and it works real well here.

You could toss your remaining purple crayons into the MML and not hurt the mix and it would give it some color and stiffness for your climate to boot.

[fredj338]

If you are looking for a good stick lube, little to no heat, WL BAC is pretty good stuff across a wide vel/pressure range.

[bruce381]

""The only thing I haven't figured out yet is why with the purple the first 2 inches and last 2 inches were leaded, but the middle of the bore was clean. Anybody got an explaination for that one?"'

Barrel tight through frame in the front and lube just not working at the muzzle end?

[noylj]

The traditional diagnosis would be that the leading at the start of the rifling indicates a too small bullet or a too hard bullet such that you aren't getting sealing. Leading towards the end of the barrel indicates that you have run out of functioning lube.
Both at the same time, could the center section of the barrel be tighter and you actually got sealing and then lost it towards the end of the barrel?

[Kraschenbirn]

Have never tried lubing handgun boolits with any of Jake's "hard" lubes but do use them, almost exclusively, for smokeless CF rifle calibers and have found them quite satisfactory. Last time I took my Long Branch #1 Mk 4 to the range, I ran close to 100 rounds of hard-cast 185 grainers (2025 fps) through it without so much as dry-patching the bore and was still hitting in the black of a standard 200-yd NRA highpower target at the end of the day.

Back on my workbench, a couple passes with a bronze brush wrapped in ChoreBoy strands, a few patches soaked in Shooter's Choice Lead Remover, followed by three or four dry patches and - SHAZAAM! - the bore's (almost) as clean and shiney as the day it came off the line in 1942. Have done, essentially, the same thing with every one of my milsurps at one time or another without any significant leading.

Bill

[ak_milsurp]

Hmmmmm.. I sure hope so , Bill! I just received 10 sticks of Jakes purple.... I've been using RCBS green sticks on my .45 ACP boolits, and it worked fine. Kinda sticky though.....

I've also lubed hundreds of rifle boolits in , .266, .311, .312, & .325 with the RCBS Rreen. (I've not shot any yet though)

These were all loaded with 16-20 gr of 2400 depending on application..... I assume all will bee in the 1500-1650 fps range

I also hand lubed lubed some .268-269 and .331 boolits with straight JPW cuase , frankly, that's what I had on hand, & I wanted to shoot them as dropped.....

Ain't Boolits fun? lol

[DLCTEX]

I bought Jake's sample pack and when it came to the Purple Ceresin stick I didn't want to mess with heat so I mixed it 50/50 with the NRA formula alox/beeswax, heated in a microwave. This mix worked fine in 38 Spc., 45 ACP, and 47-70 and needed no heat in the RCBS lubesizer.