Wider lube grooves needed....?

[Lead pot]

John.

I get groups at 200 yds that are out standing, I mean very tight less then a MOA. The next day I can take the rounds I didn't shoot up and they will just hold 5"
Maybe some day I will figure out why.

I never cared for wide lube grooves in rifles. They are ok in the short barrel hand guns for close work.
This bullet shoots very good and you will very seldom pull lead using a multi groove bullet like this because there is not a long space of dry lead in contact with the bore, even the ogive is clear unlike a bore riding nose.

[Don McDowell]

John and despite all the threats of dire consequences, and the promise that we'ld see that bullet winning competitions..... I still have seen no equipment lists, nor heard of any matches that anyone has ever fired that bullet in.....
Just seems like whenever the talk turns to bp and the original wcf and colt rounds the biglubers are like a batch of zombies, coming at us like Peter Boyle in Mel Brooks Young Frankentien, tatered bottles of triple 7 and app dropping from their sleeves, and buckets of drool from a variety of lubes sliding down their chins,,,, BEEG LOOB, BEEG LOOB,,, about all they can say...

[Springfield]

John Boy: Last time I looked the meplat(one T) was the flat part on the end of the bullet. How can it be larger then the sides of the bullet to keep the bullet from fitting between anything? As for Big Lube bullets being required for long distance shooting, no one ever said they were designed for such use, for the most part. Mostly they work well for Cowboy Action Shooting where many rounds are sent down range for guys like me who are too damn lazy to blow tube or wipe their bores, especially for rifles. With pistols most anything will lube well enough if you use BP lube, but then again lazy guys like me like to use the same bullet in both rifles and pistols. And so far I haven't found anyone who can tell me how the extra lube will HURT at most CAS distances. And EVEN YOU got the 500 grain BL bullet to work great once. Maybe you should do some more load development since that is what you are so good at, according to you. Apparently the bullet is up to it under the right circumstances. As for how we got along without BL bullets for so long, you could ask the same thing about computers, cell phones, digital cameras, fuel injection, automobiles, polio injections, laser sights, plastic framed handguns, rifle scopes, all kinds of stuff. Just because it hasn't been around for 200 years doesn't mean it isn't helpful to a large group of people. Like I said, every bullet isn't for everybody. If it was, we would all have just one bullet mould for every caliber, and I'm betting that isn't true for too many here. You wanna blow tube, wipe your bore, use grease cookies, go ahead. I choose not to. I cast my own bullets, so whether I cast a BL or some other smaller lube groove bullet it is the same amount of work for me and no skin off your behind so what do you care? I don't make fun of your sights with bubble levels in them (can't ya hold your gun straight or what?) And who the heck says to use 777 or APP with BL bullets, not the seller of the moulds, that's for sure, DD uses real BP. Subs don't even need that much lube as far as I know, I never use that stuff anyway. I think you are just starting to make stuff up now.

[RugerBob]

I would only be using this rifle for cas/sass. I have the 454190 thats a single cav and haven't used since I got some other 2,4 and 6 cav molds. Thanks for the great info all, Bob

[John Boy]

How can it be larger then the sides of the bullet to keep the bullet from fitting between anything?

Springfield, the side arms on the Lightnings are straight at the back and then they are curved inward at the front of the chamber. The curved front ends are not wide enough to allow the PRS to fit between them when the rounds are released from the magazine. The width problem is the PRS does not have a sufficiently tapered ogive and metplat smaller than the width of the front part of the arms. The nose of the bullet slides up on top of the arms, are loose and not secured on the carrier by the side arms. The rounds then are not in the proper position being presented to the chamber and they jam up against the top of the chamber

Want the big lube bullets to shoot good groups past CAS distances? To do it, all the big lubes have to be redesigned!
Take look at this thread for 44-40 wide lube groove bullets that were redesigned ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/in...p?topic=8266.0 ... including the 100yd target



Next, take a look at John Kort's (w44wcf) video shooting the redesigned Accurate mold 44-40 bullet that he made knocking down a bank of pigs at 300 meters
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/in...p?topic=8921.0

w44wcf is in the process of doing the same redesign for the the PRS, 45 Colt
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=45-260F-D.png

We all have to remember the beginnings for Big Lubes ... Pigeon Roost Slim took the 45 caliber Maxi which has a wide ogive at the driving band then tapers to a sharp angle to the metplat. PRS extended the wide ogive with the large metplat. Then along came the Snakebite and then the Mav Dutchman with the same nose configuration, skinny shank and wide GG

If in the beginning, the modified bullet designs was done for all the Big Lubes with a more tapered radius nose, smaller metplat, wider driving band, better balance ratios ... they would serve both purposes: CAS ranges and longer ranges past the CAS distances

Target pictures and videos of the good groups shooting the redesigned wide lube groove bullets ... DON'T LIE!

Springfield, if I was you ... I'd get these redesigned molds and cast bullets for sale that serve both purposes - CAS and longer range shooting capability. I believe then the original designed bullet sales would die on the vine

[Don McDowell]

Ruger Bob you combine the bullets from the mould you have with a prooven blackpowder lube, such as Bullshops Nasa, Sage Alox, White lightnin, DGL , and others you don't need to worry about all the **** that seems to afflict BEEG LOOB zombies.....

[Springfield]

John Boy: When these re-designed moulds become available in LEE type 6 cavity I might consider it, otherwise my bullets/hour count will go down and make the bullets more expensive. What you guys don't seem to consider is that 98% of my customers are cas shooters and don't care about the wider meplat. And SOME of my customers actually use these bullet for hunting also, and they LIKE the wider meplat. Long distance shooters are a minority in the shooting world, especially ones who shoot 44-40 and 45 Colt. I have only had maybe 6 customers in the last 5 years inquire as to the long distance capability of the Big Lube bullets, and then they were asking about the DD-ROA 45-70 bullet, which sucks at it. I have my own customer base, so if someone else wants to get into the small caliber BP long distance bullet business they have my blessing. All bullets don't work for everybody, and to go along with that, I can't please everybody. If I did then I would be the only bullet casting business in the world, wouldn't I? As to the Lightning, I didn't know that about the feeding. I have been tempted a couple of times to buy one but am always glad I didn't after seeing and hearing how they work most of the time. I'll stick with my '66's and my Henry. And the NOE bullet above really is only slightly different than the original MAV bullets I cast. The newer ones are different with larger lubegrooves, DD likes to change them at will and I don't always agree with him. I really like the Accurate 215 bullet posted above. . But according to Mr McDowell, we don't need any of these. Even you long range guys can't agree.

[Don McDowell]

And you Springfield are, as usual, unable to make a compelling reason why we need to use your t/c maxiball knockoffs......
How about instead of a picture of a poorly cast bullet you show us some groups those bullets can fire?

[Springfield]

Most anybody can hit a 12" steel plate with a pistol at 15 yards, and an 18" steel plate at 25 yards. That's all the accuracy we need. Big Lube bullet people never claimed the bullets are the most accurate out there. We do find they work better in keeping the BP fouling soft, especially in rifles. If they don't work for you, don't use them. We , on the other hand, don't feel the need to weigh our bullets and sort them by weight, nor do we make sure all the primer holes are the same size, we don't blow tube,wipe our bores, use sights with levels on them, use sticks to steady our guns, sock our powder, separate our brass by headstamp, use a drop tube, weigh all our charges, or use a tool that cuts off the sprue cutter marks so the bottom of the bullet is perfectly flat. We use any cheap Blackpowder we want. We don't have to use any brand name lube as there is so much of it most anything will work. We have fun blasting away at our steel plates while we dress up as cowboys, Indians, shopkeepers, train conductors, barkeeps, fallen women and Mexican banditos. Most of all, we have fun. SOME of us actually shoot Long Range also, but most of us don't have the time, money or energy to do what that takes to be competitive. But we don't do them at the same time. If your bullets work fine at YOUR cowboy shoot, I am happy for you. Many of us tried other bullets and found them lacking. Most of my customers are longtime repeat buyers, and I find it difficult to believe we are all idiots. If you feel your bullets are so much better, than I repeat, start your own bullet casting company and put us Big Lube guys out of business. I personally would rather do leather work anyway. It is more creative and fun, bullet making can be a chore, but hey, we all gotta make a living, and the market is there. Here is a pic of a nice 38-40 bullet, maybe it will be up to your standards, but I doubt it.

[otterdriver]

Sounds like accuracy is SECONDARY to keeping fouling soft with these Big Lubes? Seems like that would limit your market...

[Springfield]

I suppose it does, somewhat. But then we can't all afford swaged bullets that are all perfect, with accuracy that we will never need. All bullets, like all products sold today, are designed with certain criteria and demographics in mind. The BL bullets were designed to solve what some saw as a problem, having to swab your bore or maybe blow tube to be able to complete a cowboy match without touching your gun,cleaning wise. They were never intended to be long range accuracy bullets. If they aren't perfect for all people then someone needs to design a better bullet. And for me it will have to be in a 6 cavity mould to compete with the capability of the current mould to put out enough bullets to make them economically competitive. So far no one has been able to have a batch of 2 cavity steel moulds made with the larger lube groove so all BL bullets have to be hand cast. And I am not willing to give up 33% of my casting volume to get a bullet that I don't think will sell any better than the current model. None of the bullets touted above to be better than the current design are available in a 6 cavity mould that I know of. NOE will do 5, Accurate will do 4. I have examples of both gentlemans moulds and they are much better quality than the LEE moulds I currently use, but not enough cavities. They also tend to run quite a bit more, money wise. And until my customers start complaining that they can't hit any steel because of inferior bullets I see no reason to invest more of MY money. I do a few things that some folks think are crazy. I shoot BP in my 45 auto. I load BP on an unaltered Dillon progressive. I make my own lube. I shoot BP shotguns with plastic wads. As long as I'm not bothering anybody I don't appreciate people saying what I am doing is wrong. It works for me.

[Lead pot]

At the range the CB's shoot 30-35 feet you could load the rounds with what ever fits the case it wouldn't make any difference.
But you shoot a bullet like the last photo I think it will be like the once I was given once and they might just as well been loaded in a two bore punt gun because they hit every way but straight on and all over the place.
You can make a bullet that will carry a oz of lube and if it is not a quality lube it wont mean anything down range or how many you can shoot before things jam up.

[Springfield]

I guess the spotters at the shoots I have been to are blind, because I have clean stages all the time, even a clean match once in a while. Last year during the Wild Bunch side match at our annual shoot we set the rifle target out to 100 yards. Lots of Enfields, Mausers, Krags, and some guys like me shooting lever actions. My rebarelled to 38-55 Winchester 30-30 was the only gun to hit the target 9 out of 10. The next best was 6 hits. I used a Big Lube bullet lubed with my own crappy lube. We shot a total of 30 cartridges and the last stage was the best, with the 9 hits. I realize 100 yards is no big deal to you guys but here in our area the longest range we have is 200 yards. I thought 9 out of 10 with the gun held freehand and under the clock was decent. Certainly good enough for cowboy work, and WAY better than "minute of deer", which is all some guys strive for. Why don't you complain about jacketed bullets not working well in your shiloh's, or why inlines aren't "real" blackpowder guns, or how the subs don't smell the same as real BP? It makes just as much sense. You are mixing apples and oranges here. Nobody "NEEDS" Big Lube bullets, just like nobody "needs" anything better than a Buffalo Classic to shoot long range. Some things work better than others, but some work fine for what we use them for. It all depends on how particular you are, and how much money, time and energy you have to invest. I guess you guys would really go off on some of threads here where guys show bullets with wrinkles in them and some other poster says, "just shoot them, they will be fine" for most work. And they probably would. Doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for a better bullet, but it is their call, and if it is good enough for them, what business is it of anybody else? As for jamming up, I can and have shot a 5 stage match, put my guns away. 2 weeks later shot another match, put my guns away. 3 weeks later shot another match with no problems with guns jamming. With unaltered Uberti 1872 Opentops and an Uberti '66 rifle. Done the same with my 5.5" Uberti SAA's. So don't tell me the $%#^ things don't work, I know better.

[Don McDowell]

Most anybody can hit a 12" steel plate with a pistol at 15 yards, and an 18" steel plate at 25 yards. That's all the accuracy we need. Big Lube bullet people never claimed the bullets are the most accurate out there. We do find they work better in keeping the BP fouling soft, especially in rifles. If they don't work for you, don't use them. We , on the other hand, don't feel the need to weigh our bullets and sort them by weight, nor do we make sure all the primer holes are the same size, we don't blow tube,wipe our bores, use sights with levels on them, use sticks to steady our guns, sock our powder, separate our brass by headstamp, use a drop tube, weigh all our charges, or use a tool that cuts off the sprue cutter marks so the bottom of the bullet is perfectly flat. We use any cheap Blackpowder we want. We don't have to use any brand name lube as there is so much of it most anything will work. We have fun blasting away at our steel plates while we dress up as cowboys, Indians, shopkeepers, train conductors, barkeeps, fallen women and Mexican banditos. Most of all, we have fun. SOME of us actually shoot Long Range also, but most of us don't have the time, money or energy to do what that takes to be competitive. But we don't do them at the same time. If your bullets work fine at YOUR cowboy shoot, I am happy for you. Many of us tried other bullets and found them lacking. Most of my customers are longtime repeat buyers, and I find it difficult to believe we are all idiots. If you feel your bullets are so much better, than I repeat, start your own bullet casting company and put us Big Lube guys out of business. I personally would rather do leather work anyway. It is more creative and fun, bullet making can be a chore, but hey, we all gotta make a living, and the market is there. Here is a pic of a nice 38-40 bullet, maybe it will be up to your standards, but I doubt it.

Springfield I don't use a blowtube except in long range matches when shooting grease groove bullets on hot days, I don't do all the stuff you mention to cases.
I don't shoot sights with a bubble level, in fact most of the time I don't use anything in the front sight of my long range guns except the silver blade.
I do and have for however for the past 40 someodd years weighed out ALL of my cast bullets, wether for the handguns and wcf cartrdiges or the longrange rifles etc. I even weighed out the roundballs for c&B revolvers and percussion and flint guns from 36-54 caliber.
I also do believe that even in the silliness of the dress up game you play that a load developing the most accuracy you can muster will help make up for a wiggle or a shake. Accuracy is easy to achieve and maintain given quality bullets and lubes in the first place.
I'ld also suggest if you prefer leather work to bullet making you might want to concentrate on the leather work.....and it that's the case why do you spend so much time huckstering those bullets you don't like to cast?
You're right that bullet you pictured for the 38-40 won't hold a candle to the RCBS 180 or the original Lyman/Ideal bullet.

[Lead pot]

The problem with the wide lube groove is it doesn't have enough bearing surface to keep it from stripping across the lands

[otterdriver]

John Boy is right. Even to a total newbie as myself, the performance shown in the video is an impressive sales point. The Big Lube is a cool looking projectile, but seems to just have too much mass forward in its design. Seems like it would be inherently unstable. I probably should't have opened my mouth. Will defer to more competent members...

[Springfield]

That's amazing, you can tell how accurate a bullet is going to be by just looking at it! I wish I was that smart, I always have to do some load development first. Ya know, I don't huckster anything. I don't pay to advertise my bullets anywhere, never have. All of my customers are either repeat sales or else they were referred by a friend. I never say the BL bullets are the only thing that will work. On the contrary, even in my replies here I have stated that all bullets don't work for everybody, but you seem stuck in the "they aren't needed anywhere by anyone" mode. You sure you don't work for the government, because that's the kinda thing they like to say, and forget about choices and people deciding what works for them. You even go as far as telling me what I should do for a living. How about you have fun with your long range stuff and I will stick to my silliness.

[Don McDowell]

Not only does it lack on the bearing surface, that skinny little post left there in the bottom of the lube groove will not compress the same amount each round that goes down the barrel. Captured bullets has shown widely varying lengths of those things, and that's not going to do anything to make accurate shooting. Combine that with the oversized nose, with the very little mass in the rear of the bullet and it's liable to be twisting during it's ride down the barrel. Those lube groove could be half the size they are an the bullet would be a much better bullet and still provide ample lube for use with blackpowder.

Springield, you're the one that said you liked leatherwork better than casting.......

[Lead pot]

I guess the spotters at the shoots I have been to are blind, because I have clean stages all the time, even a clean match once in a while. Last year during the Wild Bunch side match at our annual shoot we set the rifle target out to 100 yards. Lots of Enfields, Mausers, Krags, and some guys like me shooting lever actions. My rebarelled to 38-55 Winchester 30-30 was the only gun to hit the target 9 out of 10. The next best was 6 hits. I used a Big Lube bullet lubed with my own crappy lube. We shot a total of 30 cartridges and the last stage was the best, with the 9 hits. I realize 100 yards is no big deal to you guys but here in our area the longest range we have is 200 yards. I thought 9 out of 10 with the gun held freehand and under the clock was decent. Certainly good enough for cowboy work, and WAY better than "minute of deer", which is all some guys strive for. Why don't you complain about jacketed bullets not working well in your shiloh's, or why inlines aren't "real" blackpowder guns, or how the subs don't smell the same as real BP? It makes just as much sense. You are mixing apples and oranges here. Nobody "NEEDS" Big Lube bullets, just like nobody "needs" anything better than a Buffalo Classic to shoot long range. Some things work better than others, but some work fine for what we use them for. It all depends on how particular you are, and how much money, time and energy you have to invest. I guess you guys would really go off on some of threads here where guys show bullets with wrinkles in them and some other poster says, "just shoot them, they will be fine" for most work. And they probably would. Doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for a better bullet, but it is their call, and if it is good enough for them, what business is it of anybody else? As for jamming up, I can and have shot a 5 stage match, put my guns away. 2 weeks later shot another match, put my guns away. 3 weeks later shot another match with no problems with guns jamming. With unaltered Uberti 1872 Opentops and an Uberti '66 rifle. Done the same with my 5.5" Uberti SAA's. So don't tell me the $%#^ things don't work, I know better.

Just asking, and not knocking your way of doing things. What powder are you using to do this with?
I clean my rifles or hand guns after every use.

[Springfield]

I don't do it that way everytime, just a couple of times as sort of a torture test. I did it once with Goex and the other time I think is was KIK powder. I'm just a cowboy shooter so I use what I can get cheap. I'm sure the lube groove could be smaller and the bullets would still work OK, but I didn't design them. You guys sure are hung up on absolute accuracy, glad I don't have to be to have fun. I said I liked leather work better than casting, didn't say I was willing to give it up. I like shooting better than reloading, yet I still reload.