Who uses what alloy for deer?

[stubert]

I am going to start casting for a 44 mag. I want fullpower loads. I have a 250 gr. gas checked keith mold from Lyman. I have a supply of ww ingots and a supply of #2 alloy ingots. velocity will be approx. 1300. Who's got some experiance with 44 on deer? Thanks in advance. Stubert

[Lloyd Smale]

your #2 will work fine for high velocity 44 mag loads and if your barrel is a good one your ww alloy will work fine too.

[waksupi]

I've killed maybe a half dozen deer, and a few antelope with .44 Mag pistols. All were with stout loads, air cooled wheel weights. I believe most were with the old Kieth loading, ss gr. 2400, behind a 240 gr. SWC.

[44man]

Air cooled WW's will work fine with that boolit. If you go to a larger meplat, water cooled will work. A WFN will work even harder. It all depends on the boolit and what size meplat it has. The smaller the nose is, the more you want it to upset.
The .44 is just great on deer. All you want to do is balance expansion with penetration. You want both but a large meplat needs no expansion to work.

[Dale53]

I've killed a half dozen deer with a .44 magnum. All but the last were killed with a Lyman Keith (429421) out of WW/Linotype 5/1 or 8/1. I used the linotype mostly for the tin content to improve casting. Both alloys worked just fine. If I had a gas check bullet, I would just use WW's with 2% tin for castibility. The Keith bullet is really all you need for deer. However, Frank Siefer and I designed the Lee C430-310 RF (GC) mould for heavy game and I killed the first head of big game with this bullet. It turned out to be a decent 10 point buck (not a world beater by any means but a nice, representative example). I consider this a premier quality bullet. It is exceptionally accurate (at least to a hundred yards as I have not shot it at longer ranges) and with the large meplat does a fine job on game.

It DOES recoil noticeably greater than the 250 Keith but in a hunting situation that's really not much relevant (if you do your job you only shoot it once). Air cooled Wheel Weights with 2% tin works just fine with the gas check.

YMMV

Dale53

[44man]

I have shot the Lee boolit waaaay, waaaay farther then 100 yd's and it stays stable and accurate. One of my favorite boolits.

[Dale53]

44man;
Glad to have that information. I only "claim" what I have done, and since I haven't shot this design any further than 100 yards, I couldn't really say. I do know that it sure does well up to 100 and really happy that I can now say that it does well at true long range.

I have shot the Keith at 200 yards and know that it is a good long range design, but not "our" bullet.

Dale53

[Shuz]

stubert--I've killed perhaps a dozen,give or take a deer, with lead boolits outta the .44 mag. over the past 40 years. During that time, I've used about every alloy immaginable. I've never lost a deer, and I've never recovered a spent boolit! All passed on thru regardless of the distance. Last fall I even used a composite 429421 of my own mfr. and it passed on thru at about 50 yds. I've come to the grand conclusion, based on my experiences, it just doesn't matter what alloy is used. --Shuz

[44man]

Thats why I like cast boolits. The deer I have shot with the 240 XTP never were penetrated even with rib shots. Yeah, they died but I was always worried about a bone hit or a quartering shot. Long live the cast boolit!

[JudgeBAC]

Dale 53 said "I would just use WW's with 2% tin for castibility" Do you use pure tin to get the 2%? What mixture of what do you use to achieve this ratio?

[fatnhappy]

stubert--I've killed perhaps a dozen,give or take a deer, with lead boolits outta the .44 mag. over the past 40 years. During that time, I've used about every alloy immaginable. I've never lost a deer, and I've never recovered a spent boolit! All passed on thru regardless of the distance. Last fall I even used a composite 429421 of my own mfr. and it passed on thru at about 50 yds. I've come to the grand conclusion, based on my experiences, it just doesn't matter what alloy is used. --Shuz

Exactly my feeling. It isn't like they're wearing kevlar. FWIW, I believe there are only 2 reasons to tinker with your alloy for deer hunting with a .44, leading or castibility.

[abaslon]

HI,
Reading this thread and trying to get a better feel of things with WW castings.
I'm shooting a 454 and trying out the WW's as well. SO FAR, the alloy married up with the Lyman 250 gr .452 flat nose mold is some pretty hard stuff and works pretty darn well when I only load up to a heavy 45 Colt, about 1250 fps, but things tend to go a little off center when I push the same casting up to 1850fps with the Casull load behind it.

I was shooting the LaserCast silver alloy 320gr slugs with awesome accuracy, but they be special and store bought stuff. . . SO the question comes down to is the WW alloy hard enough to deal with these "Extra" loads, or is the boolet's size, the weight (250gr instead of 320gr) the cause for all the excitement of not knowing exactly where the next round is going to land.

Just for your information, the boolets I produce with WW alloy, I also size and lube with a hot molly compound through my RCBS sizer, so if anything, the 250 gr boolets are a bit more slipery than the store boughten ones. And they are indeed the same size, so it's not due to wobbling around in my barrel as it heads out for the kill. Oh yea, nether one have GasChecks installed. . . Both are raw alloy on the base.

I've fired my WW boolets into sand and then dug them out. I can see there is 100% rifling, because one can see the alloy pulling just a wee bit off the back of the boolet where the rifling has passed, and all but no markings along the grooves. Seeing this confirms my sizing to be proper for my barrel. And the slug was not malformed by striking the sand other then roughing the surface. However, these were of the 45 colt variety with the 1200fps velocity.

Even so, I shouldn't be seeing such the wide throw of accuracy that I'm getting when I step it up to the heaver load. . . All ideas welcome.

[44man]

For a lot of my boolits I mix 20# of WW's, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony. Boolits are hard but tough and I have had them to 1800 fps without a problem. Most of my deer have been killed with this mix.
I DO have a .44 boolit that I would not use this mix with for hunting nor would I even think of hunting with it. I had it made for long range target and the nose is pointy. Come to think of it, it is not very accurate either and only shoots good from my Marlin, makes a great plinker.

[Char-Gar]

Unless you use a soft alloy and a hollow point bullet, you are not going to get any significant expansion from that bullet and sixgun combo regardless of what alloy you use. So, just use what works best accuracy wise in your pistol. Lyman No. 2 alloy is just as good as any and better than many for your purpose.

[Bass Ackward]

I am going to start casting for a 44 mag. I want fullpower loads. I have a 250 gr. gas checked keith mold from Lyman. I have a supply of ww ingots and a supply of #2 alloy ingots. velocity will be approx. 1300. Who's got some experiance with 44 on deer? Thanks in advance. Stubert

Stubert,

What alloy works best on deer is what alloy works best in your handgun. Then after you determine that, if it turns out you need ACWW or harder, you need to match a bullet design to it with a wide enough meplat to cover the fact that you won't expand it at handgun velocities.

We have guys here that shoot 1300 fps with pure lead and a GC. One even does it with LLA. But that soft, you are going to have to operate at the slow end of the burn rate chart to do it. And still you will only be able to do it if everything is right with your gun. I know I can't do it with anything I currently own. But I can get 1300 fps out of 20-1 with several powders fairly easy. And your bullet design must carry a fair amount of lube if you want to shoot soft too. especially in warm barrels or weather. As you go harder, your bullet will be tougher and give you wider powder and lube choices and warmer temperature ranges from which to find options for lube and accuracy.

Catch the pattern?

[45 2.1]

Stubert,

What alloy works best on deer is what alloy works best in your handgun. Then after you determine that, if it turns out you need ACWW or harder, you need to match a bullet design to it with a wide enough meplat to cover the fact that you won't expand it at handgun velocities.

We have guys here that shoot 1300 fps with pure lead and a GC. One even does it with LLA. But that soft, you are going to have to operate at the slow end of the burn rate chart to do it. And still you will only be able to do it if everything is right with your gun. I know I can't do it with anything I currently own. But I can get 1300 fps out of 20-1 with several powders fairly easy. And your bullet design must carry a fair amount of lube if you want to shoot soft too. especially in warm barrels or weather. As you go harder, your bullet will be tougher and give you wider powder and lube choices and warmer temperature ranges from which to find options for lube and accuracy.

Catch the pattern?

You can get expansion at handgun velocities. I do it with 750 fps 44 Specials and have killed deer easily with them. That is one of the reasons you see big lube grooves on my designs. Keep trying, you'll get it soon enough.

[Bass Ackward]

You can get expansion at handgun velocities. I do it with 750 fps 44 Specials and have killed deer easily with them. That is one of the reasons you see big lube grooves on my designs. Keep trying, you'll get it soon enough.

Bob,

I think you mis-read the post. ACWW at 750 fps?

Sure you can expansion, but I would say that at ACWW hardness and up, everything has to be right and conditions come into play that you need to understand, max range limitations and shot angles and or the use of special techniques. All that go beyond the scope of his question.

At that point, safer to err on a wider meplat design.

[45 2.1]

Bob,

I think you mis-read the post. ACWW at 750 fps?

Sure you can expansion, but I would say that at ACWW hardness and up, everything has to be right and conditions come into play that you need to understand, max range limitations and shot angles and or the use of special techniques. All that go beyond the scope of his question.

At that point, safer to err on a wider meplat design.

No, I didn't. Reread your post. I also didn't say WW.

[Bass Ackward]

No, I didn't. Reread your post. I also didn't say WW.

Bob,

Help me out fella.

<<Then after you determine that, if it turns out you need "ACWW or harder", you need to match a bullet design to it with a wide enough meplat to cover the fact that you won't expand it (ACWW or harder) at handgun velocities. >>

That says, you can expand up to ACWW hardness and if you can't expand you need a larger meplat. What am I missing?

[stubert]

I never even thought of using Lee. I have had good results with laser cast 300 grains. Do you know which top punch I would need in a lyman 450 sizer? If I tried the 430-310? thanks, Stubert