Newbie - Spit Substitutes ? Lubing after dry ? and Sizing afterwards ?

[Lead pot]

DB.

Before gathering up a bunch of loading for that rifle I would listen to guys like Martini that shoot these rifles and know them well.
The only input I will make regarding the Martini because I dont have one and I dont know what they have for a throat or chamber dimensions. But what I'm going to suggest to you is make a chamber cast of at least 1/2 of the chamber and a inch past the chamber end just past the throat. This will give you the dimensions you need for a proper PP or GG bullet for this rifle and have a mould made to fit your rifle's throat. Yes the cost will be more then a Lee but you will make up the difference on the brass you will save from not over working the necks.
Like I said I don't know the nature of the throat of the Martini but Martini said it had a fairly long free bore and I dont know if it is a cylinder type or tapered from the chamber case neck wall I call this a lead if it is tapered. If it is a straight cylinder type I call this free bore before the lead.
Once you have the cast and get your dimensions you select the paper thickness you can get most of and subtract the case wall thickness X2 (if the case neck wall is .011" you subtract .022" plus your paper thickness X4 and patch it to .002 under groove or bore diameter. I choose my paper thickness so two wraps will patch it to .001 over the depth of the grooves. Martininbelgain recommended patching to groove I would listen to that advice, because he shoots one.
The closest production mould you might be able to get might be NEI. http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I am about to leave for the range - 30 minute drive away.
Have to carry more **** than if I had a baby in the car !

"Did the patch appear like a powdery mist as the bullet cleared the barrel..."
All I see is a huge cloud of smoke !
Then I choke if the breeze is blowing back toward me....Ha !

I have never seen any sign of paper anywhere.
A few paper disks were about 20 feet in front of the bench, but just a few.
Never have seen any Lube Cookies or parts of them.
The target's holes are clean and HUGE ! I use posterboards taped to cardboard.



The holes stay open and are easy to see with my spotting scope.
I use a 2 x 3 ft cardboard since I am such a sniper-like shooter !
I drive tacks with a sledge hammer. BIG tacks !

To be quite honest with you, I have no idea what lead in the barrel looks like !

So - I'm off to see the wizard......

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Here is where I go shooting - closest place to where I live.


The bench I used today.


Your's truly about a second after firing a shot off.


Long story here - see explanation below.


Remnants of paper patches found in front of bench.


I am quite happy with what I found out today - and - I love this rifle !

Shot at the target - sights on center circle - at 50 meters.

I tend to acquire the target and fire quickly.
If I set there and study the aim and wait until it is just so, then I really start missing worse.

First shot - where'd it go ! ?
Second shot - saw dust from bullet hitting way above target frame.

Third shot - aimed about 6 inches below circle.

Fourth and subsequent shots at yellow aim point below target wood.

Wasn't the Martini set up to 200 yards ?

THEN - once I knew where it was going (got bored), I took aim at the 485 m (500 yard)
Metal Buffalo Gong.
Hit just below the head.
Tried again and hit it !
Then again....hit it !

The Rangemaster (nice fellow BP Shooter) wanted to shoot the M-H so I let him.
Several rounds.

He had been shooting an Uberti Sharps (on cement to right of bench).

So after that, I shot at the 600 m round metal Gong and came within
6'' to 12" of it twice.
The Range Master was watching for me in his spotting scope.

I tried at the 1,000 m metal gong target, but I have no idea where the bullet
went. Like aiming up at a 30 degree angle ! I'll get it though...someday.

Then the Range Master fired off several more. He really likes the Martini !

I searched the ground in front of the bench and found a lot of my paper patches.
The four wraps of Tracing Paper is working quite nicely.....
Notice the Lube Cookie Grease that the paper patch is wiping out of the barrel.

Hardly anything came out of the barrel with a dry patch after 6 shots.
The Lube Cookie I used is working nicely. The PP Bullets are wiping the barrel out
as per the plan.

I think maybe I'm there. I'm not going to worry so much about the Taper Crimper.
I'll buy it when I have some more money....lol.

I just don't understand why I shot better at long range than at 50 meters.....

Can't wait to try the straight sided bullet (paper patched, of course) that my machinist
friend is working on soon with his milling machine.
Which would fly truer, "A" or "B" ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DoctorBill,

Just keep working - the rifle will put 'em in a ragged hole at 50 if you're able to - and the ammo is right. And good for you that the thick wrap is working. However, if you look at the paper, you'll see that it isn't sliced through - I prefer to have the rifling cut the paper to shreds.
Now you'll have to experiment and see whatever works best for you.
And as to which will work best, I'll put my money of the 'fatter' bullet - but you never know, each rifle is different.
Just keep us updated!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

- When I put my MHR Brass in a bottle of dilute vinegar at the range, there was a
great deal of black residue "sludge" in the bottle by the time I got home.

I should have checked the pH of that vinegar sludge to see if it was still acidic
(still with vinegar left) or alkaline.
I didn't think of it until later while I was rinsing the brass off with warm soapy tap water.

Had it been alkaline, then the vinegar I had put into the bottle was not enough !
This is important as the whole idea is to keep the Brass slightly acidic.
If there were not sufficient vinegar, the resut is the same as just tossing the
brass into a bottle of tap water !

If you are going to do this vinegar treatment to your brass, you have to make sure
that you have enough excess vinegar to neutralize the alkaline Black Powder Residue....
and still remain acidic.

- Yesterday I deburred the inside flash holes in my Jamison 577/450 Brass.
Used a homemade tool.

My 577/450 Brass is all cleaned up, polished and deburred - read to do it again !

Still no GAD Brass has arrived after 30 days - Nelson said on the phone that I'd get it this week...nope.

Has anyone reading this ever ordered Brass or Cartridges from GAD Custom Cartridges ?
http://gadcustomcartridges.com/

- My 577/450 Brass now measures out (measured a random ten after 2nd firing):
- ID - - - - - - - - OD -

477-79 - - - - - -511
477 - - - - - - - 511-12
476-77 - - - - 510-11
476-79 - - - - - 511
476 - - - - - - - - 511
479 - - - - - - - 510-11
476 - - - - - - - 510-11
475-77 - - - - - 510-12
476 - - - - - - - - - 511
476-77 - - - - - 510-12

That is my M-H's chamber size. Consistent with last time (after fire forming).



What dimensions would I order for a Taper Crimp Die to hold a paper patched bullet
of final OD of 0.474 ?
Obviously 510 OD, but how do you specify the "Taper" ?
510 - 508 OD - bottom of neck to top of neck, maybe ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DrBill,

If it has a taper, it will be kinda flexible - you can adjust it up or down to suit. just make sure it is big enough at the bottom so that your cases will run in easily, and small enough at the top for thin-walled, reformed magtech brass and an inside diameter of .465. Also, the case when run up completely shouldn't touch the die body. You could actually ask Buckshot on this forum to make you one - I know he did some work for several peole on this forum, most of which seem to be pleased... AND he will know from personal experience what you will need!


BTW, don't forget about annealing! You'll come all too soon to that required next step...

enjoy,
Gert

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I went back and re-read Buckshot's post of 10-27-11 on the Martini Henry Cartridge
that he disassembled.

I think I fit into his, "I know of BPC shillhuette shooters where the boolit is barely retained in the case,
and cases aren't resized at all."

Since I don't want to resize my cases and only want to Taper Crimp them,
I am condemned to find a paper of the proper thickness to come up with
a PP Bullet of close to .475 mol.

That has been fun....

Been lurking all over the place trying to find a paper that will roll onto this .457
slug either wet or dry and end up at .475 inch dry.

My young daughter had brought home a roll of paper 4 years ago, that she
had obtained from her High School to make Banners for a Car Wash for her
Basketball team.

Three rolls of that comes out just a tad larger than .475 - almost can't get it
into the unsized, fire formed case.
A "Tad" is just a little bit larger than a "Framistan".

All this may be a moot point once I get the milled out mold and the straight sided
bullets at .462 mol....
Then I will have to come up with some paper that works out for that and with fewer wraps.

So, I kind of don't want to spend a lot of time farting around rolling these .457 bullets
if I won't be using them in the future.

I hate sitting around waiting.
But I have to wait until I get the final paper patched bullet size before I can ask anyone to
make a Taper Crimp Die.

Question - If I have the larger sided bullet made (A), would I have to paper patch out
past the leading edge of the flat portion, or not ? - Would "A" really be a wadcutter ?


DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

Well,,

There's always bullet sizers - just purchase a Lee sizer, and hone it out to whatever diameter you like. Then run the patched bullet through that die and you're there. BTW, that taper crimp die , the way it is used, kinda equates to necksizing.
And as to the bullet - I'd go somewhere between the 2: a long bearing surface for sure won't hurt with the 577-450. Of course, for longer-range work, you might need a more aerodynamical nose though.
Tip of the week: find a paper, then have the mould milled out to a diameter that will work with THAT paper - much easier than the other way around!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My friend is going to mill out that LEE mold this afternoon at 1 PM - about
four hours from now.

I think a 464 bullet diameter would allow me to paper patch up to 476 easily w/o
too many layers.

The LEE roll crimp die that I have - can that be honed out to make it into a taper die ?
Does it roll crimp because of a curl up near the top edge ?

If it can't be modified, I might as well sell the Die Set to someone who can use it.
I don't want to full length size, I fill the cases via a funnel and I can't use the
roll crimper/bullet seater.

I only need the Number 17 Shell Holder for priming and de-priming !
I deprime with a hand held de-priming rod and a small tap hammer.
I can order the Shell Holder by itself.....


DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

Kurt, Rick correct me if I'm wrong, but you gents do use that taper crimp on an empty case, before seating the bullet? Not in the classic way of taper crimping, with the bullet in place...
If so, you would still have some use for some kind of expander, at least. And maybe the seater. Besides, should you decide to have a go at converting Magtech brass to 577-450, then the dies will be pretty useful.
BTW, have you already tried the sizer die backed out partially, you might just get lucky and get enough sizing for the case neck... both body and neck are tapered.

[Lead pot]

Kurt, Rick correct me if I'm wrong, but you gents do use that taper crimp on an empty case, before seating the bullet? Not in the classic way of taper crimping, with the bullet in place...
If so, you would still have some use for some kind of expander, at least. And maybe the seater. Besides, should you decide to have a go at converting Magtech brass to 577-450, then the dies will be pretty useful.
BTW, have you already tried the sizer die backed out partially, you might just get lucky and get enough sizing for the case neck... both body and neck are tapered.

Yes that is the way I do it, but I didn't want to get into this with D/B because this will take a little work making an expander. I have a lathe and it is no problem making what ever I need. .
Using a taper crimp die by it's self is ok if you dont over crimp but it's hard to get a consistent hold on the bullet because of the brass spring back and a portion of the bullet shank does deformed to a point.
But again if the best accuracy for match loads are not needed there is no need to go through all this work.
it's just my way to get a more consistent bullet tension and a very consistent release that keeps the ES in the lower single ES.

Forgot.

Yes I neck size by backing out the sizing die, but in my case with custom made black powder obsolete bottle neck cases I just cant seem to get the proper diameters even sending the die maker several annealed fired cases form my chamber.
Lately I been having my reamers made and I make my own loading dies using die blanks and the problem is solved.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My friend, Gary, used his milling machine and removed aluminum from a new
LEE 0.457/450 mold to make this modified mold.

One side he made 0.465 inch diameter - the other 0.462 inch diameter.
The straight side is 0.85 inches long.



Here is the product and their measured dimensions. Ten of each. Not enough made
to do a good study - it is dark and cold outside and I have to grade papers for my class.

0.462 side yields - 477 grains (average) mass with 0.463 in diameter bullet

0.465 side yields - 484 grain mass with 0.466 in diameter bullet.



My God...Gary does such nice work - he is amazing to watch !

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

Kurt, Rick correct me if I'm wrong, but you gents do use that taper crimp on an empty case, before seating the bullet? Not in the classic way of taper crimping, with the bullet in place...
If so, you would still have some use for some kind of expander, at least. And maybe the seater. Besides, should you decide to have a go at converting Magtech brass to 577-450, then the dies will be pretty useful.
BTW, have you already tried the sizer die backed out partially, you might just get lucky and get enough sizing for the case neck... both body and neck are tapered.

MIB

In answer....I use the standard TCD to do all I need to do! MIB....keep in mind that I am running my patched bullets through a Fred Cornell Sizing die.....AFTER they are patched and dried; taking them down to an OD of .4465"...and this procedure has rendered to me better than EXCELLENT results at the target! I set the TCD such that after I have seated the upper veggie wad...I then run all the cases through the TCD which approximates closely the external dimension of my bullets....which aligns the bullet quite well. I then reset the TCD to give me my final taper crimp. I do not have to expand the case for bullet seating by hand!

[Buckshot]

................I shoot only smokless in my MkIV Martini Henry. Cases are necksized to .469" ID. A slight flare is applied, boolit seated, mild taper crimp applied. Done deal.

An 'as cast' 45 cal rifle boolit (I use the Lee 457-405-F (solid)) at .459" and then 2 wraps of 20lb bond (.004" paper). When dry I have a .472" slug. I anneal every 5th firing (Bertram brass). Most senior of my Bertrams have over 30 firings with zero loses.



I believe the above is mostly repeated info I believe, but to re-iterate I have practically zero experience with BP loaded 577-450. Or I'll back up and say. "With CORRECTLY loaded BP 577-450.

For the taper crimp insert I simply used a taper pin reamer which is .125" taper per 12".

.............Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Buckshot - I am confused. I know just enough machining to be dangerous to myself.
You said, "For the taper crimp insert I simply used a taper pin reamer which is .125" taper per 12"

Isn't that a drill like device for making tapered holes in something ?
Is that the tool that you use to make a Taper Crimp Die ?
Out of steel that you then heat harden ?
I was wondering if one could buy a TAPER PIN REAMER of the appropriate dimensions and then
ream out a piece of Brass or Mild Steel about 5/8 inch thick and then simply load the bullets in
the cases and place the Taper Crimp Tool (just made) over the Case Neck and "lightly tap"
it down with a tube (bottle cap, plastic pipe nipple) that fits over the protruding bullet - all by hand.

Inexpensive

Half-A**ed Idea -



Since it is tapered, it should pop right off with a slight tap.....

Am I full of horse pucky ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DB,

You're forgetting the most important element - consistency. "lightly tap" is pretty hard to do consistently, and any lack of consistency will show up on target. Something that will fit in a reloading press will do much better...
FWIW, Buckshot's procedure is more or less identical to mine - minimal resizing to get some neck tension, minimal case mouth expansion, frequent annealing - and your cases will just keep going.

[DoctorBill]

I suppose you are right...toss that one.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

If your 5/8" thick collar is threaded, pinned, or glued into a piece of pipe, it becomes a 'die'.
Cut off the bottom of the die at a length which puts the collar in the right location on the case neck ... when the die is in contact with your bench. Then, no matter how hard you hit it, it will never go further down that the workbench surface allows.

A lot of reloading tools over the years were used with no press to control their function.
Just look at the Lee Loader, for Pete's sake.

CM

[Red River Rick]

DoctorBill:

Amazing thread, what started out as "Spit Substitute", ending up into a full blown "ZULU SPECIAL" boolit loading thread. I must admit, it is a very interesting thread.

You've put more time into this than the BRITISH did developing the CARTRIDGE!

I have a couple of "ZULU SPECIALS" as well, originals. They are indeed a lot of fun to shoot, as you are well aware of, by now.

BTW, they (the British) said at a 100 meters, the bullet would pass thru 3 Zulu warriors with shields.................5 without.

Nice going!


RRR

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I just watched "Zulu Dawn" from 1979 with Burt Lancaster and Peter O'Toole.
OMG - hundreds of Martini-henry's !......and I only have ONE !

Yes, Red River Rick, the 577/450 was/is an awesome round !
I read somewhere that British hunters in Africa brought down Cape Buffaloes
and even Elephants with that round, plus Lions and Tigers and Bears.

As to this thread meandering around....yes it does.

I disdain writing a new post for every single thing outside of one train of thought.

I suppose the Moderators don't appreciate this thread much.

Looks like my idea for a hand operated Taper Crimper went over like a lead balloon.

But I notice something.....

For every hobby that I have had (and I have had a lot - I'm a dilettante),
I have run into at least two kinds of people.

One type seems to have a box from which they can pull endless supplies of money.

They have THE best rifle or Transmitter or automobile or tractor or whatever
that money can buy. No limits. "Top That !"
I'm not trying to put anyone down - If I had a lot of money, I'd probably be that way.

God just made me to be lower middle class and seems to want to keep me that way !
People who don't have a lot of money who have to do workarounds and save a few dollars
here and there so they can get the most inexpensive goodies that are available.

So I have not given up....I think I'll somehow scrabble up a homemade Taper Crimper
(certainly not a 'Die'), so that when the time comes, I can have some money to go buy
one of them thar Springfield Trap Door 45-70's that I am now lusting after....
...don't think I'll ever be able to afford a Sharps 45-70.

Not a new Springfield made today, nor even an old one in perfect shape.
But I'll get my hands on one and then bug some other Forum specializing in
Springfield Trap Door Rifles.

Endless fun !

I just don't know where I'm going to store all these damned rifles !
I'm running out of room and my wife is starting to wonder if I am not crazy.

Lord help me if I get interested in old pistols !

DoctorBill