45-110 scene in "QUIGLEY"

[405]

Yep, very few of us were there in 1874

The bluff in question is more like a flat topped butte or mesita with a little slope to the top. That distance was measured/surveyed later by an Army engineers unit and is recorded in the record.

If Dixon's rifle had a tang mounted sight it would have to have been the long range variety having at least 4 inches (400 +/- minutes) elevation. I think a barrel mounted "ladder" sight would have plenty of distance simply because of the sight geometry.

Doing the calculator thing assuminig an average barreled Sharps rifle zeroed at 100 yards shooting a 450 gr, 50 cal bullet with a BC of .3 with a muzzle vel of 1400 fps. The amount of additional rear tang sight elevation needed for 1550 yards is about 310 minutes or about 3.1 inches. (I tried it on my long-staffed Sharps and it will just make the additional 3.1 inches.) At the target, the bullet would be going about 600 fps and would take between 5-6 seconds to get there.

BTW there is a whole chapter devoted to this in MLV's excellent book, Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

[juniorsonic]

Get your eyes checked. I have lobbed shots out that far, and further with a Sharps. And I wasn't using a scope.

(^^WOW, NICE!!....I see civility, politeness, & manners are DEFINITELY your strong suits!!!)

Well, it looks as though I may have been wrong in my assumption. I was going on the sight picture I get when viewing a target at 1000 yards. It just seemed likely to me that a man-sized target at nearly 2x that distance would be very hard, if not impossible, to see. However, someone more experienced than I at extreme distances "not using a scope" has shown me the error of my ways.

[405]

js, no you're not wrong in your thinking. The bucket shot in the movie would be one thing, the Billy Dixon shot would be much harder to predict. A small group of Indians on horseback standing on that butte would appear as fairly small specks- maybe even with horse and rider outline. The sight picture would be pretty fuzzy/iffy I imagine. The trajectory as the bullet dropped in to the target would also be steep- so your thoughts about how critical distance estimation is vs POI has a lot of merit. Add in basic bullet drift, wind drift, etc., etc., it would be one tough (lucky) shot. With MLV's permission, I'll take a snapshot of the photo of the Adobe Walls "shot picture" and post here. Additionally, there is another photo and write up of the Billy Dixon shot in Sellers' Sharps book. Both MLV's book on shooting buffalo rifles and Sellers' book on the Sharps are well worth the investment!!!

Photo clip from Mike Venturino's book, Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

[TXGunNut]

Both MLV's book on shooting buffalo rifles and Sellers' book on the Sharps are well worth the investment!!!-405

You talked me into it, 405! The Buffalo Rifle book is on my "want" list. Don't forget the book he and Steve Garbe wrote: BP Cartridge and Reloading Primer. They tried to sell me a copy years ago in Raton but I was shooting PPC @ the time, have only recently discovered BP and cast boolits. I learned so much from this book and it's a rare weekend that it doesn't wind up next to my reading chair.

[RMulhern]

If you read the story carefully, a good case could be made that IF Dixon really did make the shot (no one else ever mentions it being done) that he made the shot with the 44-90 he actually owned at the time, and not the 50-90 he took from the bartender early on, when his 44 was running low on ammo....

Don

Don't think so....if what I've read is right! After the hostilities started....noone wanted to venture outside the saloon which is where Dixon was and the .44-90 was across the street! The shot Dixon made SUPPOSEDLY was made with the BORROWED 50 2 1/2! This speaks LOUDLY to the fact that if the shot was made....it was more than a SCRATCH SHOT; it would have been a totally LUCKY SHOT being as how Dixon had never fired that rifle before!!

Just my opinion based upon what I've read...from Dixon's book!

What's the case made for the .44-90??

[Don McDowell]

My case for the 44 is that Dixon said he left his ammo at the store. He and the owner of the 50 both went to the store to get their ammo. ( he also said he started the fight with the 44 but took then went to using the 50 that the bartender had.) The people at the store wanted Dixon to stay, the other guy went back to the saloon with his ammo.
I don't think they traded guns. I'ld be more inclined to literary license by an editor somewhere.

[zardoz]

Well, if everyone is on the Adobe Walls deal, figured to pipe in.

I grew up just a short drive south of the site. Been there many times, and the first time I was still just a baby.

This picture is from shortly after Christmas of 1993. In the picture are my father and sister (taking movies of me, taking pictures of the famous mesa). You have to know how to get there, but Dad always knew the way. He is standing about where the shot was taken from.

A couple of excellent books are the Billy Dixon autobiography, and the incredible archaeological dig study "Adobe Walls: History and Archaeology of the 1874 Trading Post". You can get both on Amazon fairly inexpensive still.

I always thought the Billy Dixon story, would make one heck of a movie.

[zardoz]

Heres another one, of my very first visit to Adobe Walls.

In this picture, is my father with camera, taking pictures of Mom, Grandma, and I am the babe in swaddling clothes in Mom's arms. This was a frame grab, from 8mm film, transferred to digital. Granddad was taking the movie in 1957 or so.

I think this is in front of the buffalo hunters monument.

[littlejack]

Thank you for sharing. You have a rare story to tell. Great photos.
Jack

[Gellot Wilde]

Those are great pictures to be able to see...thank you for posting those.

Has the Buffalo Hunter's memorial gone/been moved now?

[zardoz]

As far as I know, all the monuments are still there.

I was in error, as the baby picture is in front on the native Americans monument. the buffalo hunters monument is squared off on top.

Here is a link to a page with the monuments on it.

http://www.forttours.com/pages/2adobe.asp

Also, the grave of Billy Dixon is there, and has on the inscription his Medal of Honor award. I believe William Olds grave is there to. He was killed accidentally, when his rifle fell, and went off while on a ladder.

Check this link for photos of the Billy Dixon marker, and also has GPS coordinates to the site.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/W...am_Billy_Dixon

I will dig around in my photos and movies, and see if I can find some more photos or interesting tidbits.

[firefly1957]

Before Quigley in the spring of 1985 from order to receive was 6 weeks cost $961. Ordered long Range express 34" #1 taper barrel 50-3 1/4 chambered for paper patch. It is a Sharps Shilo nice gun bites at both ends shoots real good if I do my part.

[Johnk454]

(^^WOW, NICE!!....I see civility, politeness, & manners are DEFINITELY your strong suits!!!)

Well, it looks as though I may have been wrong in my assumption. I was going on the sight picture I get when viewing a target at 1000 yards. It just seemed likely to me that a man-sized target at nearly 2x that distance would be very hard, if not impossible, to see. However, someone more experienced than I at extreme distances "not using a scope" has shown me the error of my ways.

Don't forget the effect humidity has on long range clarity. Things that can be resolved and targeted in Montana or Raton are sometimes quite impossible near the gulf coast where I live. Having spent some time in Raton with my Shiloh I can attest to the amazing visual clarity.

Another tidbit: Mic McPherson regularly shoots at the 1123yd buffalo at Raton offhand and hits it often enough to know it isn't accidental. One day, he picked up my 34" 45-90 LRE that was dialed in for the buff - and with the first round from a strange gun, hit the buff offhand.

Never discount luck coupled with talent and practice.

[mustanggt]

I can tell you that if I hit someone or something at that distance it would be all luck. Someone of Billy Dixon's talent, hard work and smarts is 99.8% skill in my opinion.

[juniorsonic]

Don't forget the effect humidity has on long range clarity. Things that can be resolved and targeted in Montana or Raton are sometimes quite impossible near the gulf coast where I live. Having spent some time in Raton with my Shiloh I can attest to the amazing visual clarity.

Another tidbit: Mic McPherson regularly shoots at the 1123yd buffalo at Raton offhand and hits it often enough to know it isn't accidental. One day, he picked up my 34" 45-90 LRE that was dialed in for the buff - and with the first round from a strange gun, hit the buff offhand.

Never discount luck coupled with talent and practice.

Wow...That's just.....MAN!!! I could only HOPE to get that good someday. To be able to read the wind & calculate the distance (all without "gadgets") is ONE thing - and it is always impressive. BUT: to be able to do all that PLUS score a first-round hit at that kind of distance is utterly flabbergasting, IMO. (Is flabbergasting even a friggin' word?)

[montana_charlie]

(Is flabbergasting even a friggin' word?)

Flabbergasting is ... friggin' is not.
CM

[Lead pot]

A year or so ago there was a Billy Dixon shoot Where they has a life sized silhouette cut of a Indian sitting on a horse and it was hit with out a problem.
To make a shot like that is hard but not impossible.
I cant remember where that shoot was held or who posted it.

[Jim]

Concerning the infamous 'Billy Dixon shot', you might be interested IN THIS.

[juniorsonic]

Flabbergasting is ... friggin' is not.
CM

Oh, comon now! That's nitpicking, innit? I was only goin' for a bit-o-humor!!!

[montana_charlie]

I was only goin' for a bit-o-humor!!!

As was I ... it's just that I never use smileys.
CM