45-110 scene in "QUIGLEY"

[Tom Myers]

What I AM saying, is that if one uses the distance that Tom mentioned (820) yards and/or the distance that you mentioned (900) yards, a person better be able to guesstimate either range very close, without the use of a BC.
We all know that this situation in the movie, did not really take place. I do not believe that there are but a handful of shooters in the world that can judge distance that far, that accurately with any consistency, let alone the first try at that distance.
Where in the world did you get the idea to use the ballistic calculators. We were discussing the failing point of the shooters ability of guessing the range. I must have missed the part where Quigley peeked at his BC.
Yes, the rifle and cartridge will do the job. But, without a range finder I believe the bucket would be safe.
I love verbal jousting.
Good shooting to you all.
Jack

Littlejack,

I remember when I was a youngster, on our ranch in the Sand hills of Nebraska, there were no roads as such, just two tracks in the sand, winding through and over the hills. People reckoned distance from one place to another by how long it would take someone riding a horse to get from one point to another. What I am implying is that, in those days and in a horse oriented culture, a different frame of reference was used for various measurements and estimations.

Of course there were no Ballistic Calculators, as we know them, in those days. But, if one knows the sight settings of a vernier sight for various ranges for a particular rifle, no range-drop calculation is needed. One only has to be able to control the range of the target.
As a horseman, and well acquainted with the speed of a running horse, Quigley could very well have been mentally counting seconds from the time the rider snagged the bucket until he told Marston to signal the rider to stop.

The one really big fault in the movie that bugs me every time is:

Toward the end where he shoots two fellas at the porch with one shot, the bang comes after the hit.

That is one thing that I noticed. References were made as to the time frame between the bullet impact and the sound of the shot.
Maximum muzzle velocity of a rifle with that much powder capacity and bullet weight would not be much over 1500 fps. so the bullet would drop below the speed of sound at around 300 yards. In all instances of ranges over 300 yards, the sound of the shot would be heard at the impact point before the bullet arrived.

[juniorsonic]

WOW!! Some really amazing/informative posts! I am with the one guy who mentioned a 2nd Quigley movie!!

[littlejack]

I will 3rd that.

[Hardcast416taylor]

If my old memory serves me correctly? Our site member Mike Venturino was the tech advisor to Mr. Selleck on using the Sharps rifle for the movie correctly. I also seem to remember they used 3 rifles in the making of the flick due to scenes of rough usage.Robert

[405]

IIRC that is correct about Mike V helping Selleck get up to speed with the Sharps. I cringe every time watching one of those Shiloh rifles hit the ground .

As to the time of flight in the double-hit scene. Exact distances are not specified in the movie but the director used license to enhance the effect. He could have had the bullet get there before the sound, during the sound or after the sound.

For perspective, depending on conditions & altitude, the speed of sound is about 1125 fps so it goes 1000 yds in about 2.7 seconds. The bullet/round as depicted in the movie, would go the 1000 yds in about 3.2 seconds.

[Tom Myers]

WOW!! Some really amazing/informative posts! I am with the one guy who mentioned a 2nd Quigley movie!!

Would not the title to the "Quigley Down Under" movie sequel be something like?

"QUIGLEY UP ABOVE"

I've got a bad cold today and probably took too much Nyquill.

[Chicken Thief]

Bullet got there before the sound did.........

SS

Yes and thats the fault!
If boolit ans sound start at the same speed then boolit will slow and sound will get ahead. So boom before hit not as in the movie where it is hit and then boom.

[SharpsShooter]

Yes and thats the fault!
If boolit ans sound start at the same speed then boolit will slow and sound will get ahead. So boom before hit not as in the movie where it is hit and then boom.

Sorry, given that the speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec and a 45-110 starts at 1270 ft/sec, the boolit has a 145 ft/sec lead that will grow until the boolits velocity drops below 1125. At that point, the boolit is 450 feet in the lead or 150 yards. Now sound has to play catchup. The continued velocity loss of the boolit will aide the sound in catching up and eventually passing the boolit. Without knowing the exact distance involved it cannot called fault. I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot.............

SS

[EDK]

I ain't much competition to the other guys going to the Quigley shoot. Other posts have given numbers on boolit velocity and the speed. They use a radio with the microphone wired open behind the steel targets at the Q to expedite scoring...a second or two for boolit in flight and the same for THE SOUND OF THE HIT to come back to the shooter and you use up a lot of time, even with two relays going at each of 6 targets.

If you go to the Q on Monday or Tuesday like I do, the crowd is small enough to get your sight settings checked out and be able to listen for the "ding" without a spotter. Then you can walk around and visit while the late comers are in panic mode because of the crowd or rain or ? 2010 had some pretty heavy rain. 2011 was wet...and more on the way when it was cancelled.

It is three days drive (1300 miles,) four days to shoot and visit, two days for the match, and four days back to Saint Louie.

[Chicken Thief]

Sorry, given that the speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec and a 45-110 starts at 1270 ft/sec, the boolit has a 145 ft/sec lead that will grow until the boolits velocity drops below 1125. At that point, the boolit is 450 feet in the lead or 150 yards. Now sound has to play catchup. The continued velocity loss of the boolit will aide the sound in catching up and eventually passing the boolit. Without knowing the exact distance involved it cannot called fault. I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot.............

SS

Given:
520gr boolit BC .32 and 1270fps then at 270 yds the boolit goes subsonic and at 330 yds sound and boolit are on par.

Checked the movie at 1:31:42 the shot hits and at 1:31:44 the report comes. That's a full 2 seconds from hit to boom.

I stand by my claim good sir! Boom before hit or at the wery least at the same time. 2 seconds are pure BS.

[SharpsShooter]

........for the reading impaired..................."I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot"............. since we do not know the distance...........moot pont

It is inconsequential.



SS

[405]

I noticed the possible discrepency the first time I saw the movie. But, I'll defer to the license of the director for enhancing the effect of the scene. I didn't get too tightly wrapped around the axle about it.

Previously in the movie the boss quizzed one of his lackies about the time between report and bullet hitting.... to get some sense for the distance of the shot. Also, in the double hit scene, it is hinted that the shot came from the cut in the hogback and if you listen carefully, you can hear an echo in the sound of the report.... error or not in bullet timing that was an excellent duplication of what a distant muzzle report actually sounds like in rough, rocky country. Those subtle sounds in movies like that have to be fabricated... they are usually not real time (nat) sounds recorded at the time the scene is filmed. A fine detail that is often overlooked by casual audiences- hats off to the production crew for that one.

[Tom Myers]

Sorry, given that the speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec and a 45-110 starts at 1270 ft/sec, the boolit has a 145 ft/sec lead that will grow until the boolits velocity drops below 1125. At that point, the boolit is 450 feet in the lead or 150 yards. Now sound has to play catchup. The continued velocity loss of the boolit will aide the sound in catching up and eventually passing the boolit. Without knowing the exact distance involved it cannot called fault. I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot.............

SS

SS Thats pretty darn close.

When calculating ballistic velocities and times of flight, if one needs to find an average velocity over a certain range, a close approximation (not exact but quite close) is to take the square root of the muzzle velocity times the impact velocity.

We wish to know when the bullet has traveled far enough for the sound of the shot to catch up to it.

So if we set up a simple equation with the known variables being the Speed of Sound (lets call it SS =1125 fps) and the Muzzle Velocity (MV = 1265 fps). We can now define the unknown variables ( "T" as the time it takes for the sound to catch up to the bullet, and Passing Velocity of the Bullet ( PV).

We want to find the distance at which the time of the average velocity and the time of the speed of sound are the same

Velocity x time equals distance, so then

SqRt( MV * PV) * T = SS x T

Subtract T from both sides of the equation and we have

SqRt( MV * PV) = SS

Now, square both sides of the equation and get

MV * PV = SS Squared

Now plug in our known values

1275 * PV = 1125 * 1125 = 1,256,625

Divide both sides of the equation by 1275 and we have

Passing Velocity, 1 * PV = 992.65 fps

We canceled our Time variable in the equations so we don't know the elapsed time, therefore we cannot calculate the distance but we can rely on a good Ballistics Calculator for the distance that it takes for the bullet to slow to the Passing Velocity. In this case and using a bullet with a adjusted, working Ballistic Coefficient of 0.407, the sound of the shot would overtake the bullet at 371 yards in an elapsed time of 1.00581 seconds.

I used a 40 caliber bullet but the results would be the same for a 45 caliber bullet with the same ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity.



Ain't this FUN/

[SharpsShooter]

Thanks Tom. I haven't used math like that since high school or college. I gotta get your software. It appears to have more bells and whistles than my current program.

SS

[Tom Myers]

Thanks Tom. I haven't used math like that since high school or college. I gotta get your software. It appears to have more bells and whistles than my current program.

SS

SS Thanks for the compliment. If you think the current software has bells an whistles, you gotta see what the New Ballistics and Load Records software is gonna have.

It is being evaluated as we speak and if all goes well it will be available before the end of the year.

The new software has been a long time in the oven. Mostly because of problems adapting it to the new Windows 64 bit systems.

A sneak peak at the new software is now available on-line in the on-line help files for the Precision Ballistics Help and Precision Load Records Help

There will actually be two versions of the Ballistics and Records packages. A Basic version without the Bells and Whistles and the Pro version which will have firearem and component image storage abilities, cartridge drawing capabilities, cartridge OAL calculations, complete automated inventory of components and loads as they are being assembled and fired, digital target scoring, storage and retrieval, target printing, wind vector applications, headwind and tailwind effect charts, etc., etc.. examining each of the help file pages will give a general idea of how the software is set up to help one be a better shooter and to enable a more productive reloading operation.

[Lead pot]

If you ever pull targets in the pit when they are shooting from the 1000 yard line you will hear the crack of .45-110 bullet going through the target before you hear the rifle. Only the soft what I call chicken loads of the .45-70 will you hear the rifle before the bullet passes through the target.

[Don McDowell]

Guaranteed you'll here the bullet snap before you hear the shot, when the distance is 300 yds or more, even with highpowered stuff, and it is a sound you don't forget......
It takes a 45 caliber bullet 3-4 seconds to reach a 1000 yd target. If that gong is radioed, you will get the radio report quite a while before you hear the natural thwonnngggg.

[juniorsonic]

Yeah, it's just like in F-Class/Palma matches when I'm in the target pit, and the "crack" that comes from a .308 sounds like a .22 (which is the bullet arriving & breaking the sound barrier) comes first. Then, about 2 seconds later, the muffled "boom" comes in from the 800-900-1000 yard line. I have often wondered: if the projectile goes subsonic before arrival, will there be NO sound? Simply the dirt splash & then the delayed "boom" from the muzzle blast?

[BruceB]

There were dummy replicas made of the Shilohs, and the dummies were used for the rough-and-tumble scenes where the rifles were abused, dropped etc.

**********

I spent considerable time in the pits at target matches, using mostly the .303 MkVII/VIII service loading. These bullets stayed supersonic to around 700 yards.

Beyond that, the butt party had to watch the impact area closely to detect shots on "their" target. The noise from the bullet was VERY moderate and often they passed overhead unheard. There would be a quiet "tick" as the bullet passed through the target, but it too was often unheard if any commotion was going on.

In infantry training there was much mention of the "CRACK-THUD phenomenon, with "crack" representing the passage of the bullet and "thud" being the sound of the shot. This was simulated by clapping one's hands together and then thumping one's chest with a fist. It was a poor simulation but it did get the idea across to trainees.

[405]

Dummy, prop rifles- I figured that when using them for clubs and such they used props. If ALL the rough handling scenes used props I won't cringe so much just flinch a little- can't help it