Round ball and wad problem/Hello!

[xacex]

First off let me say hello. I have gleaned a ton of information from this site since I found it searching for bullet molds over a year ago.
I have been reloading metallic cartridge for a few years now, started in with a shot-shell reloader about a year ago, and started casting this year. I have been working on a .69 round-ball load for a Siaga AK47 based semi auto shotgun. The bluedot load worked fine, but was a little underpowered running out at 1210 fps on a V-plug setting +1 which is approximately 8000psi using Remington hulls,waa12 wad, and 35.8G of bluedot using a #.189 bushing for a Lee Load All(maxed out!). Nothing wrong with them, but using to much powder than I like per load. The loadings I am making are coming from Lyman for there sabot slug( big pellet). My round-balls are cast from WW lead, and are coming out at 490G and are water quenched.
Here is my problem. Today I fired a max load( for the load all) that I worked up using Universal clays. Remington hull,209 win., WAA12,29.7G U.Clays out of a #.198 bushing. The wad cups had a hole through the shot cup to the base of the wad. The max load listed is 32.G U clays at 1416fps. and a pressure of 9,900. My setting indicate a lower pressure of around 7000 PSI, and I didn't get out the chrono today to get a fps reading. Shoots nearly flat sighted in at 50yrd line out to 100yrds. Pie plate accuracy none the less, but the wads worry me. If they are not blowing out the back, and I am on target, am I OK? No signs of overpressure on the hull base or primer pocket also.

Thanks

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Xacex, I would try putting a .125 nitro card in shot cup below the round ball of 16 or 20 gauge what ever fits tighter in wad. Turbo had a jig to make donut shaped nitro card for the ball to sit on it and if you could put such a nitro card in wad it would support ball from blowing into the wad!
I personally like to use .678" round ball in wad as I find .690 round ball too tight in my barrel.
Here is what I want you to try, just put your .690 roundball in wad and try pushing it through your barrel with a wooden dowel to check for fit.

I would not be too surprised if your ball-wad combo is too tight causing the ball to blow through the wad! ! ! !

Ajay
Video Memories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[longbow]

Are you putting anything under the ball?

I find that if I do not use at least one 1/8" nitro card wad under a ball the wads tend to fail like yours. Problem is that the wad wraps around the ball and tears.

Even better is a nitro card wad or two and a small scoop of cornmeal or Cream 'O Wheat under the ball to form a cushion/saddle.

Can't say anything on the Clays load as I haven't used that one but substituting an equal weight ball for shot or other slug should not be a problem.

Also, to watch for is that your ball/shotcup combination should be no more than about 0.003" over the tightest constriction in the barrel. If cylinder bore then bore size to 0.003" over should be fine. If choked then no more than 0.003" over choke diameter.

I find that if I get the ball or slug combination too snug in the barrel, the shotcup petals either shear or wrinkle so I go for a snug slip fit I can push through with little effort. Works best for me.

I won't say this is a dependable indication of pressure but if you get sticky extraction pressure is too high, back off the charge.

I suggest getting several reloading shotshell manuals and get reloading info from the powder sites. You can't have too much reference material for shotgun reloading is my view.

If you don't know, shotshell reloading is not like metallic cartridge. There are no clear indicators of pressure and seemingly small changes to a recipe can result in large pressure variations. A simple change of primer can result in 3000 PSI + pressure variation. Not a bad thing if it is down but could be if it is up with a max load!

Using equivalent weight shot or slug loads is a safe way to produce slug loads but working up yourself may not be.

Do some searching on this forum for slug loads, there is lots of info.

And... welcome to the site!

Longbow

Hah! Took too long typing, Ajay beat me!

[longbow]

+1 for the 0.678" ball. I wish I had a mould that size!

I have spent too much on toys lately but plan to get a 0.678" mould in the not too distant future. I have "12 ga." moulds larger and smaller so why not?

Great pictures Ajay!

[JIMinPHX]

I ran into a similar problem loading buckshot in a .410. I'm guessing that adding either nitro cards under the round ball or adding buffer powder around the ball would help. I don't have any hard & fast info for you though. Have you tried looking up round ball loading recipes in books? Do they list cards or buffer?

Edit:
Posts 9-12 of this thread show the problem that I had.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=117806

[xacex]

Thanks for the welcome! I put one of my cast round-balls in a wad, and it did not want to go through the barrel! This was a surprise to see because up till now I haven't had this problem with blown out wads. I was running these through a cylinder bore with no choke. Extraction has not been a problem in fact I have used the same hulls about 6 times now without issue other than the primer pockets getting loose over time.
Ajay, thanks for the insight! My round-balls go through the barrel on there own just fine just not with the wad. It is funny to me that I looked at several load recipes including the program that I downloaded from here, and they were all over the board. Other various manuals didn't have round ball-loads.
So, besides purchasing a new mold in the .678 size were do I get those wads without the pedals, who is the manufacture, and the number?
It seems the Lyman sabot slug would have the same issue unless it is under .685.
Longbow, The loads listed didn't mention a nitro card but since this combo wont squeeze through on its own, I imagine this combo with this hot of load wont work. This load didn't seem that bad with the pressure set as low as it was, but these guns are tanks so go figure.

[xacex]

JiminPhx, read through your post, and it seems we have the same problem with a less than max load punching out the wad. seems a nitro card would work, but if I am already over bore I think in my case it would be best to go with a no- petal wad, or a smaller round-ball. Looks like you got the bugs worked out on the .410!

[longbow]

I've found that many slug loads do not list a nitro card wad but I almost always add one or two because I kept finding Foster hollow base slugs with wads rammed into them or the petals badly mangled around the base of the slug and as mentioned, wads like your with holes or tears in them from wrapping around a ball (like yours).

The nitro card wad keeps the bottom of the shotcup flat so it doesn't extrude into a hollow base or wrap around a ball.

Generally, I have had problems with 0.690" ball in a shotcup... just a bit too tight. A thin petal tough shotcup might work and BPI lists recipes for 0.690" ball in their shotcup so I am guessing it must work or they wouldn't list it.

I am with Ajay though and think smaller is the way to go.

Another solution is to cut the petals off at the mid point of the ball or a little shorter than mid point and use a nitro card wad under. That will form a "cup" similar to the brush wads Ajay shows. Some people say this works for them but again, I have not had success doing it.

There is lots of experimentation that can be done and you just might find a good combination that works for you with what you have.

Longbow

[xacex]

Thanks longbow, I will see what I can do with what I have on hand. I already cast 250 of these things so unless I find the wad without petals like in Ajay's photo I may be cutting a bag of AA12 wads down. Its all a matter of time really. Would it take longer to cut wads, or recast in a smaller mold? Oh well, at least I have a direction to go. Like I said, I haven't seen holes blown through the wad like that so it is all news to me. Thanks guys! BTW, those wads look like Gualandi Wads. Do they make them like that for round ball or were they cut down? Or maybe its just a Gualandi 12 Gauge 1-3/16" Cushioned Gase Seal? How do those work?
update: found it!
Greetings everyone, if you have the Light Brush 12 #072LB12 wad from BPI you might be in for a big surprise as the .690 RB will fit very well right into it with the spruce facing downwards into the wad, if you could use epoxy to glue the ball to the wad then it would be even better for accuracy. This ball is 489 grains.

Happy Holidays
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings to you all, a wonderful family of slug/round ball and buck shot shooters.


If you were to try to push every slug or round ball combo through you smooth bore or rifled barrel , you just might be surprised, I do it before I start out on any project.
Here is a surprise I got with SPW sabot slug in a Savage 210F rifled barrel.

I could just push it easily,

Here its surprising what a nitro card can do for you


By the way this Fed 12C1 wad has the thinest petals and just might work with your .690 round ball and yet give you a snug fit, you never know till you try!
Some more wad choices


Its nothing but fun, playing with big man toys!
You all have a wonderful day!
Those were my last 2 cents and now I'm broke!
Ajay
Video Memories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[JIMinPHX]

JiminPhx, ...Looks like you got the bugs worked out on the .410!

No, actually I didn't. I think that I figured out what is happening, but I never got around to actually making up good .410 buckshot shells & trying them.

[turbo1889]

That is a "blown" wad. Guys that reload sabot slugs to the top end of the performance curve (real sabots not slugs inside regular old shot wads) are highly familiar with this problem since it is one of the most common problems encountered with real sabot slug loading when working at or near the top end of the performance range. As you have found out it also happens with wad-slugs (that is what I call the wan-a-be sabot loads that use a shot wad as a sabot) as well.

From your pictures it looks like you should be able to get away with using a 0.690” round ball with your gun barrel and the wads you are using. The ball is oversize and you can tell that from the way the bottom of the petals where the ball is sitting have been squashed thinner but they haven’t been severed or cut so if you are getting acceptable accuracy you may not need to invest in another smaller size 0.678” round ball mold (less common and thus usually more expensive then 0.690” RB molds).

As others have already explained to you using a nitro card inside the bottom of the wad cup under the ball is one of the easiest solutions to the problem. I personally usually use 20ga. size nitro cards inside Winchester, Remington, and other tapered wall hull spec. wads and 18ga. (not a typo) size nitro cards inside Federal, most European, and other straight wall hull spec. wads. I used to use 16ga. nitro card wads before I discovered 18ga. nitro cards in the Federal, Euro., and other straight walled hull wads and they will work but are just a smidgen too big.

There are additional steps beyond simply adding the nitro card under the ball to strengthen the base of the shot cup that can be taken but in many cases that is all that is needed to provide many people with loads that work for their needs. Using a stiffer stronger wad such as 12S3 along with buffer nesting the bottom of the ball on top of the nitro card foundation are the next steps further down the line.

As to wad-slugs loads in an S-12 shotgun specifically (AK-47 type 12ga. shotgun) Green Dot, Herco, and IMR-4756 powders are what I have found usually provide the best results. Blue Dot and Steel are powders I like but the combination of the “gas hog” semi-auto gas operated AK type action with the shorter barrel lengths common to the those guns seem to work better with slightly more “snappy” powders. Basically of those three powders Green Dot is best for lower velocity lower recoil “three gun competition” or plinking type loads and IMR-4756 is for heavy high velocity hunting loads with Herco dropping in nicely as a bridge between the two.

[xacex]

Thank you for the tip turbo! I was actually looking for herco when I picked up the international clays because they did not have it at my local shop. The Saiga 12 IZ109's are gas hogs! I tried just clays and the powder wouldn't cycle the firearm. So far the International clays looks to be on target with gas pressure, and accuracy. I am thinking of the gas sweep, or nitro card approach to these wads blowing out. The wads show resulted in flyer's, but the rest were ok. I did find the smaller round-ball mold, but holy cow it is expensive for what it is! I could buy a 6 cavity hollow-point mold for that! Currently I am trying to stay with stabilized powders hence the reason I picked up a Hodgdon powder close to herco when I couldn't find herco here. The IMR-4756 is something I will look into. I have some reliable soft loads that work well, but as you can tell I am trying to get distance out of this platform currently.
I haven't tried 3 gun yet, but It looks like my ball of wax. I need a better rifle to be competitive in that game so I haven't tried. I have a good shotgun, and pistol, but **** for a rifle!
xacex