C. Sharps (the other white meat) long

[Gunlaker]

I don't believe that the C. Sharps recievers are cast. Their web site ( it's improved greatly in the last couple of years) describes their manufacturing process. They currently use Badger and Green Mountain barrels. Mine are all Badgers but I think I might order an 1885 with a 1:12 twist Green Mountain barrel soon .

Chris.

[TXGunNut]

Wow. The thread that won't die.
I've learned (in another shooting discipline) that the easiest way to shoot well is to shoot what the winners shoot. Our friend Kenny Wasserburger has made that point quite well. Folks at Shiloh seem to build the rifle that shoots the best, IMHO it looks the best, and customer service is unrivaled.
Only two out of three matter to me, I'll never shoot to the full potential of a Pedersoli, original Sharps, C. Sharps or Shiloh Sharps. I can't afford a safe full of Sharps rifles but I can afford the best.
As soon as I figure out which vernier sight combo works with my middle-aged eyes I'll be in touch w/ Lucinda @ Shiloh Sharps.

[XTR]

The nut on the stock is more important than any other part of the gun. You can't build a gun or make perfect bullets that will find there way to the 10 ring on their own. The F-TR class National Champion this yr shoots a Savage action with an accutrigger, not a $1500 custom action with a $300 trigger. It's what he likes. I won one of the matches at the F class nationals this yr in Raton with a trued R700 in a McMillan A5. Trust me on this, it aint the bullet or the gun.

One thing you should know if you've been in other shooting disciplines, people who do this a lot will spend a lot of $$ to shoot what they like, and if the get a hard on for someone they don't tend to let it go either.

KW is vocal and thinks Shiloh is the best, maybe they are, but I'd look for myself, he's made it pretty clear that it wouldn't matter if CSA was making rifles to .00001 tolerances he wouldn't buy one, he's a Shiloh man .

Personally if I was building from the ground up to make a 1000 yd BPCTR rifle I'd go to CPA. I think the Stevens is a better target action than a Sharps, the hammer is center line and as I understand it the lock time is faster, and I've never read anything but praise for the owners. (Note, that I've thought this through and may end up there one day if I decide that the BPCTR competition is something I want to pursue)

I just got a used CSA Sharps, it's put together pretty darned well. It's got plain Jane wood, but the price reflected that. This one is going to be a shooter.

[EDG]

I believe the Browning Highwall is superior than any of the other actions used except maybe an original Highwall.
If the original Browning barrel will not shoot as well as you think it can be replaced and you will have the best action and barrel combination possible.
Why anyone uses a 74 Sharps has to be nostalgia because it is certainly not a an engineering or technical advantage over a Highwall.
KW lives right down the road from Shiloh so it is pretty convenient for him to behave the way he does.

[Bullshop]

EDG
I agree and always have. The 1885 Hiwall action is unquestionably potentually more accurate than an 1874 Sharps for several reasons.
#1 lighter hammer
#2 shorter hammer throw
#3 faster lock time
#4 straight line fireing pin
and maybe other factors all add up to greater level of potential accuracy.
I also enjoy and utalise the fact that the hiwall is a stronger action that handles modern smokless powder cartridges as well as black powder cartridges.
It was the darling of custom smiths as a platform for varmint rifles before factory varmint rifles were readily available. To my eye those custom builds from the three or four decades post WW2 are most pleasent to look upon of all such purpose built rifles.
Sorry but I cant just limit my gun nuttyness to any one type of powder. So burn me at the stake but when you pile up the fuel for my burning add a little smokeless to the black.

[Don McDowell]

There's a noticable difference between the "fullness" of the stocks on a Shiloh and a C Sharps. The CSA's are a bit thicker in the forearm and wrists, and the comb is a bit sharper than a Shiloh.
So it really comes down to which one fits the shooter better.
In the past there has been some customer service problems with CSA, nothing compared to the problems we've read about here in recent months with the Italian makers, but problems enough to sour folks anyway. There have been some folks with problems with Shiloh, but they certainly seem to be in the minority.
I have 2 shiloh's and a CSA, and an Italian in the sharps, 2 original rollers (one rebarreled ), and a couple of the miroku built 1885's. Next rifle will be another Shiloh.

Not sure why folks with little to zip experience with bpcr would choose to attack KW on this subject, obviously they haven't been aware of his past shooting accomplishments, and certainly haven't spent any time with him on the firing line.
The claim that someone would choose a Shiloh because they live just down the road, is rather stupid as actually it's probably only 150 yds further to the C Sharps building, and anyone who had actual experience would know that.
If a highwall is ones pick, then speaking from experience I'm not real sure there's any reason to get any other than the Winchester bpcr or find one of the Brownings in good shape. If a person can't make one of those shoot and shoot extremely well, they're either really crappy shots, or couldn't build a decent quality reload if their fairy godmother did it for them.

[Lead pot]

XTR.

It takes more then a center hammer and fast lock time to make a rifle shoot.
A heavy side hammer that the 74's have are more then capable to shoot quite well if the person behind the but plate can control the rifle with correct procedures.
Here is a target with two groups shot, the top one is a 4 shot dropped the sights and shot the 6 in the 24 ring. Those two groups were shot using the Lawrence rear barrel sights and a blade front sight.
I don't remember what this particular target was shot at anymore but at a minimum it was at 138 yards or the 200 yard.
This was shot using the .44-2 5/8 bottle neck and I have similar targets shot with the 7 other Shiloh's from the .40-2.5 to the .50 2.5 they all shoot good enough to get this kind of group.
Lets face it everyone will say their particular rifle made by what ever company will shoot better then the other's company what ever it is. I have other rifles made by Browning (2 .40-65 and a .45-70) and even a Pedersoli they all shoot good but the 8 Shiloh's have the edge. They just shoot !

EDG.

Kenny lives a long way down the road from Shiloh about 4 1/2 hrs of Wyo, and MT speed limits

[Gunlaker]

This sort of thread will generally never die because it's the nature of shooters to argue about which equipment, loading technique, etc is best.

In the end it's the guys who consistently shoot the highest scores that I pay attention to.

I also think that there are many reasons to choose a brand. The Shilohs are excellent rifles and the owners are really nice people to deal with. That counts for a lot to me. I find the same at CPA. I've dealt with Gail a couple of times and she is an incredibly nice person as well as a knowledgeable shooter. My CPA is not even close in "fit and finish" to my Shiloh rifles, but it's looking to be a very accurate shooter. I'll take the accuracy over a few rough spots on the outside every time. I also like my CSA 1885 rifles although my first one had issues. I will still order from them again though.

Chris.

[Bullshop]

Would anyone disagree with the -POTENTIAL- for improved accuracy with an 1885 Win over an 1874 Sharps quality being equal no matter who made the rifle? I just dont think it can be denied. All shoot well and is well known and prooven but still the potential is there in favor of the 1885 Win. Same would apply to the Stevens action over the Sharps
Fairy Godmother!!!! That is funny!!!

[Don McDowell]

Brownings singleshot is nothing more than a 75 sharps with the hammer moved to center. Borchardt did the same thing with the 75 only covered the hammer in the breechblock.
But as with most things a person needs to make his/her pick of rifle and go from there , first pick don't work out try again....

[PS Paul]

I think hearing about Kenny being terminally ill can put things into perspective on this argument a little, eh?

How are you gettin' on, Kenny? If you are still competing, that, I figure, is a good sign?

As a shooter, I would be happy to own ANY Sharps OR Pedersoli. So lucky is the man who gets to own and shoot one, in my estimation.

Good luck to you there, Kenny and good shootin'!

[Gunlaker]

But as with most things a person needs to make his/her pick of rifle and go from there , first pick don't work out try again....

I agree with that one Don.

With respect to potential accuracy differences between action types I'd bet that there is a difference. Under practical conditions I've not been able to tell the difference in my various rifles. I expect that the torque and recoil of a typical 45 cal BPCR cartridge induces enough shooter inconsistency to negate the differences in action type. I'm also not likely a good enough shooter to notice.

I've been playing recently with smaller cartridges like the .32-40. Maybe there is a noticeable difference there.

Chris.

[XTR]

I agree with that one Don.

With respect to potential accuracy differences between action types I'd bet that there is a difference. Under practical conditions I've not been able to tell the difference in my various rifles. I expect that the torque and recoil of a typical 45 cal BPCR cartridge induces enough shooter inconsistency to negate the differences in action type. I'm also not likely a good enough shooter to notice.

I've been playing recently with smaller cartridges like the .32-40. Maybe there is a noticeable difference there.

Chris.

I think there is truth in here. I personally think the lock time is a bigger factor in off hand or unsupported shooting, not so much if you have support.

[waksupi]

There is always the Borchardt.....

There used to be a guy down in the Bitterroot, building these all by hand. Is he still in the business?

[Lead pot]

[Bullshop]

B-u-t- full

[Don McDowell]

Rick the fella in New Mexico that was building the borchardts got crossthreaded with the ATFE over something , so he's not in business anymore. Haven't heard about the Bitteroot rifles for quite some time.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

The "Bitterroot Borchardts" are made outside of Stevensville, MT by Argus Barker.

I think none of you have heard the entire story of Wolfgang Droege and mr Schofstall.

I will state that Shiloh builds everything from scratch. They built a foundry next door to their factory, and make castings for their rifles. Even the screws. They sent employees down to Cali when they bought a pantograph machine to learn how to run one. They also have a couple of Pratt&Whitney deep hole drilling machines that they make their barrels on.
You can go inside most days and Kirk will give you the complete tour.
N-O-B-O-D-Y, to the best of my knowledge has even gotten even a peek into the mfg part of C Sharps shop.

One of you should call and ask where every part of the C Sharps rifles are sourced and where they are assembled.

Ask Kenny to tell you the garbage truck story...

[waksupi]

I'm not surprised no one is allowed in the C. Sharps manufacturing area. Of all the firearms companies up here in the Flathead, I don't know of any that you are going to be welcome to go into, if some one doesn't know who you are, or have an appointment. Hardly any of them have signs identifying them as firearms or accessory manufacturers, so people can't just wander in.

[Don McDowell]

I've heard the story of the great breakup at the Sharps plant in Mt numerous times since it happened. Always have and always will believe there to be two sides to everything.And as it doesn't affect me directly and was 30 some odd years ago, fully believe it's time to let that one die , as Wolf is gone, John is old and has a manager hired to run the company now. It's old hat, dragging it back up serves little to no purpose.
Mike Venturino also dispelled the story about the garbage truck right here on this site a couple of years ago.
I know folks have reported on other boards of touring both factories. It surprise me a little bit that a tour during regular work days would be done at either place, the disruption to the work place by folks wandering thru and the safety concerns would almost seem to prohibit it. I know the day we were at Shiloh, the only guys working were in the wood shop, and Lucinda gave us a whirlwind look at the Shiloh shop, and did go into the wood shop and bring my rifle out to show me.
Pick your brand, pick both brands, however you slice it it's an American company, producing an American product and either one deserves consideration in my estimation long before the imported knockoffs.
Here's a video short tour of the CSA factory http://csharpsarms.com/pages/14/Manu...g-Process.html
CSA