22 cal velocity?

[Tinbullet]

I have blended about 20 pounds of lead including linotype, a lead~tin mix, some #8 shot, and some type holders that are 20 plus bhn. Sofar i've cast a dozen sample bullets both air and water cooled that are a consistant 14~15 bhn. I'm using a RCBS 22055SP with a gas check and a .225 sizer. My question is what velocity should I attemp to acheive with these bullets? FYI I use the same basic mix for 170 grain gc bullets in my 30~30 at 2000 fps with no leading

[leadman]

I cast the Lyman 44gr boolit out of about the same BHN and load it to approx. 2,200fps with no leading. Straight lino will work to 3,000 fps with LBT Blue Soft lube but accuracy starts to deterioate above 2,600 fps.

[Tinbullet]

Thanks! I had some linotype samples that I loaded and shot a half dozen or so at 2150 fps avg. Accuracy was mabe 6 inches at 50 yds. So its a work in progress.

[Bret4207]

Hold on, you AC and WQ them and get the same Bhn??? That makes no sense, WQ should always come out significantly harder, especially with the antimony and arsenic bearing alloys you have. You do know it take 2-3 weeks for a boolit to reach it's more or less final Bhn, right?

You;re going about this backwards. First you determine your static fit size- say+.001 or 2 or 3 over groove size. You aim to fill the throat of the gun. Then you load you boolits with as much care as possible, being especially observant for any marring or swaging as you seat and for any runout. Then you work on dynamic fit, that is, what the powder does tot he boolit on ignition and how it handles the ride up the bore. Bhn is down in the 2nd or 3rd level of options in dynamic fit.

I mean absolutely no disrespect, but you need to go back to square one. Make the best boolits possible, give then time to settle, load like a benchrester and see what THE GUN wants. Start low and slow, work up, record your observations. You're getting the cart before the horse.

[cbrick]

I gotta agree with Bret, make it fit properly first.

You said you used a .225" die but are you certain that is what is needed? Did you slug the bore? As an example, my Hornet bore slugs .2251". Just because it's a 22 caliber the number .224" isn't a magic number, your bore could be .224" but . . .

You said you got 6" groups at 50 yards, how well does that .225" bullet fit your firearm?

Your question is on alloy but there is no magic alloy that will make up for a poorly fitted bullet. Proper fit in both the throat and the bore however is magic and will go a long way to make up for a less than optimum alloy.

As Bret said, the cart cannot pull the horse, your alloy will probably be fine as long as the bullets fits. Properly!

Rick

[white eagle]

the two above posters hit the nail on the head
fit is first and then once you get the size you need
you can add the other stuff if you need it

[Tinbullet]

Thanks for the input guys.
I'll work on the slugging the bore. Can I use the bullets that I have already cast or do I need to cast some soft ones? I have soft lead also.
FYI the RCBS bullet "as cast" comes out right at at .225 with this alloy so it would be pretty tough to make them much bigger. I'm using a borrowed mold and sizer by the way.

Prior to loading test fire cartridges I did measure seating depth to the lands and so resultant cartridges were made .005 off the lands. This is another varible that I can chase. Firearm is a Rem 223 with 26" heavy barrel and pretty much keeps 3 shot groups within a inch at 100 yds. with jacked bullets.

I sluged the barrel and it measures .224 with .220 over the lands.

[Larry Gibson]

Tinbullet

You need to also determine the twist rate of that 26" barrel, it does matter.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

A soft slug is easier to upset into the grooves. If it starts out oversized you sometimes can get an accurate idea of groove size, but IMO upsetting the slug at the throat end will give you a better idea.

The mould can be "Beagled" to add a thou or 2.

Am still curious about your Bhn readings???

[runfiverun]

these guy's have you on the right track.
the other thing you need to do is scrutinize them little dudes.
look at them like they owe you money it's payday and they are on thier way to the horse races.
then weigh them.
i check and lube/size, then weigh again.
if you have a slower twist bbl like a 10-12 twist, things go smoother chasing velocity with accuracy using cast.
i have gone over 2700 and have held under 1/2" [at 100 yds]
i started with linotype then backed it down to waterdropped 4% tin and 6% antimony alloy with some arsenic by adding ww's then went with sulpher as a grain modifier [just so's i didn't have to use ww's]
and waterdropped them.
i'd get the mold hot and go as fast as i could till the mold started cooling down then started the heating over again.
keeping my alloy at 750 with an oxygen barrier on top of the melt.
use a powder that fills the case, a cold brisance primer, and fill the throat.
don't panic about the boolit being so much bigger than the bbl i use mine sized at 2245.
heck my 358 win slugs out at 358 and i size scuff my boolits for it at 358 i use an alloy of the 4/6 and ww's 50-50 waterdropped for it and push it to jaxketed velocities.
just showing diameter aint the real deal, fit is.
imitating the cut of the throat is where it's at.
maybe that explains why i have more 30 cal molds than i got 30 cal rifles.
and 8mm molds,and 7 mm molds.

[Tinbullet]

Thanks guys its all good info. I did slug the barrel and it measured .224 and .220 over the lands. The barrel has 1 : 12 twist. I went ahead and cast up 1200 water droped bullets. Bullets drop at .225. Hardness still only runs 14 to15 bhn. So i'll wait 2 to 3 weeks to see if bhn increases. Then I can work up powder charges and seating depths and see what works in this rifle.

[Bret4207]

There's something wrong here. Air cooled takes 2-3 weeks to harden. WQ reaches it's "final" hardness in a day or two at most from what I've seen. Are you sure your alloys weren't "worn out"? What are you using to measure Bhn?

[Larry Gibson]

Tin bullet

Just some food for thought;

I've recently been revisiting cast in the .223 in a 12" twist M16 upper on my Colt H-Bar Comp lower. The barrel is milspec and shoots right at 1 moa with Speer 55 gr HPs over H335. I have an Eotech on it so the dot sight is not as accurate as with a scope. I'm using the Lyman 225462 left as cast at .227 and lubed and GC seated in a .228 sizer. I'm using Hronady GCs and Javelina lube. Alloy is 60/40 linotype and lead and the bullets are AC'd and run 15 - 18 BHN. They weigh 59 gr fully dressed. My goal was to achieve M193 accuracy (2-3 moa depending on lot) at as high a velocity as possible with 100% funtional reliability in this M16/AR.

I've been using slow burning powders and am finding RL22 to be a very good one so far. I use LC cases that are FL sized in an RCBS X-die and a crimp is applied with a LFCD in the second lube groove. The AOL is 2.095 which puts the top of the GC at the base of the case neck; see photo. I've been using Rem 7 1/2 primers. The ES is quite large with them. I have some test strings loaded with CCI 450 magnum primers and will test them on Monday in the hopes to get the ES down while maintaining accuracy.

So far 26 gr RL22 (100% loading density) is looking like a good load; see below photo of the last 10 shot group at 100 yards. The average velocity was 2277 fps with the center of the screens 15' from muzzle. That is 136,700 RPM. 27 gr RL22 is a slightly comressed load at 2356 fps (141400 RPM) and as we can see from the phot, accuracy is going south. Obviously I'm over the RPM threshold with that load/componants. That target also shows why 5 shot groups can be misleading. Had I been shooting 5 shot groups and happened (that's "random selection") to pick the 5 cartridges that produced the 1.1" cluster I could have been misled into believing that was a good load. That's a good example of why ballisticians do not believe 5 shots is an adequate sample size.

Anyways, we'll see if the magnum primers improve the ES. I will then switch to a very accurate 12" twis Rem M700V and test again using bench rest loading techniques. I may also try a harder alloy of 80/20 linotype/lead with a BHN in the 18 - 20 range.

Larry Gibson

[Tinbullet]

Larry you've done this before, a few times i'll bet. I cast and shoot for the 44, 45, & 9mm mostly. I also shoot the 30 30 mod 94 with either 170 jacked or the Lyman 170 gc cast. Either load is 'minute of deer' as we say here in MI. Bret. If I new the actual chemestry of all of the `lead' ingots I have I might be able to figure out the bhn issue. I know that I have some form of linotype cause its thin strips with letters cast on the edges. After that every thing is a blend of lead, tin and whatever else.

[Bret4207]

Bret. If I new the actual chemestry of all of the `lead' ingots I have I might be able to figure out the bhn issue. I know that I have some form of linotype cause its thin strips with letters cast on the edges. After that every thing is a blend of lead, tin and whatever else.

Yeah, that would be nice for any of us! What are you measuring with?

[Tinbullet]

I have a Lee hardness tester and follow the typical file a flat, test 30 sec. & read regimen. I am going to check Lee's spring pressure asap as it may be off. I have an Excel sreadsheet calculating bhn's based on pressure & ball dia so if Lee unit is off I can change chart & replot. By the way I have indoor range lead available, maybe 12 14 bhn, but I have not used in it any mix yet. Is it usable or just more unknowns?

[Bret4207]

You have range scrap that's 12-14 too? Most range scrap I've had is real heavy on 22LR bullets and ends up down around 9-10. Perfectly usable in a variety of platforms as long as you work with the alloy and don't try to make it act like linotype.

[Larry Gibson]

Bret4207

I've several hundred pounds of range scrap from 2 indoor ranges. .22LR and quite a bit of commercial cast handgun bullets along with some alloy from handgun jacketed bullets (mostly 9mm and 45 ACP). It also runs 12-15 BHN which I assume is because of the commercial cast alloy in the mix.

My pretty much straight .22LR runs 8-10, pretty much the same as yours. I use the Lee tester also in a microscope setup.

Larry Gibson

[Tinbullet]

You have range scrap that's 12-14 too? Most range scrap I've had is real heavy on 22LR bullets and ends up down around 9-10. Perfectly usable in a variety of platforms as long as you work with the alloy and don't try to make it act like linotype.

I guess that I have 30# or so which I just rechecked at 14.3 bhn. Have ya ever notice how the hard ingots kinda make a 'tink' sound as opposed to a thud from soft lead. I should cast a few bullets and WC to see what I get.

[Tinbullet]

Bret4207 My pretty much straight .22LR runs 8-10, pretty much the same as yours. I use the Lee tester also in a microscope setup.
Larry Gibson

What do you make from your RL? Do you mix with anything else to create say some hollow point bullets? I have found that taking 50% 15 bhn and 50% 8 bhn yields a resultant 12ish bhn. By the way I was born at the army hospital in Tacoma. Pops was in Korea!