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Thread: 7.92x57 Experiment

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master

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    4350 is one of the powders known to be used when SEE occurred. Reducing the powder charge with this worries me as reports are everything will look good, until it is not.
    At least with the faster pistol/shotgun and medium rifle powders there is still a pretty reliable way to track case expansion and appearance of the primers.

    The new Lyman Cast bullet manual has a load for the 8X57 with 190gr boolit, H4895, 35.5grs, 1,700 fps, 42.5grs, 2215 fps.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by leadman View Post
    4350 is one of the powders known to be used when SEE occurred. Reducing the powder charge with this worries me as reports are everything will look good, until it is not.
    At least with the faster pistol/shotgun and medium rifle powders there is still a pretty reliable way to track case expansion and appearance of the primers.

    The new Lyman Cast bullet manual has a load for the 8X57 with 190gr boolit, H4895, 35.5grs, 1,700 fps, 42.5grs, 2215 fps.
    Thanks leadman...that's the load that I use for the 190 grn gas checked Saeco's that I have been shooting. 40.0 grns H4895 and seated just off the lands. ( With pretty good success. ) The 24/47 is a shooting machine with those.

  3. #43
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    Well, I loaded up 20 rounds of a new and improved paper patched boolit and went shooting with the wife on Sunday.

    Same results as last time out. Lead plated bore, and shotgun pattern accuracy. No patch fragments, just a cloud of smoke / particles out of the muzzle.

    The load was 36.0 grns of Varget. Patches were printer paper put on damp and allowed to dry completely. Folded tails compressed flat in the 0.324" sizer die. The patched boolits will run into the lube sizer with the weight of the sizer handle and measure 0.324" going in and coming out. I then tumble lubed them in Lee Liquid Alox. They were allowed to dry completely. I seated them in the cases so that they were just touching the throat in the M48. The COL was 2.882". The marks from chambering on the patch were about 1/32" back from the leading edge of the patch and the patch was just over the ogive. The patch is nice and tight on the boolit. The boolit is nice and snug in the case. I don't think that I am cutting the patch when I crimp. The lee factory crimp die is set to just barely iron out the case mouth flare.

    I am wondering if there is something strange going on with this rifle. Each and every case has a soot ring where the neck ends and the shoulder starts. No soot on the case itself, just a smudge around the neck - shoulder area. Hmmm...I should measure that and see what is going on.

    The accuracy issues may be coming from the bullet bases. They are about 0.001 - 0.002" out of square with the boolit axis. I'll fix the homemade sizer die punch and see if that will correct the base squareness problem. The M48 also has a bit of bell mouth to the bore. I think that the previous owner got a little enthusiastic with a cleaning rod at some point. That doesn't make a whole ton of sense though, because the rifle came with a really nice, issue, muzzle protector.

    I may switch over to experimenting with my 24/47 at this point, or drop back to trying something like Trail Boss and REALLY low velocities in the M48.

    On the bright side, the Winchester 52C was shooting with laser like accuracy, as it always does. One very small ragged hole on paper and clipping the daisies was easy. It would be nice to have a center fire rifle that shot like that.

    Anybody have ideas on what to look at on the M48? It doesn't damage the patch during feeding.
    Last edited by offshore44; 08-09-2011 at 07:23 PM. Reason: Fixed the demensional error...

  4. #44
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    "The load was 36.0 grns of Varget. Patches were printer paper put on damp and allowed to dry completely. Folded tails compressed flat in the 0.314" sizer die. The patched boolits will run into the lube sizer with the weight of the sizer handle and measure 0.314" going in and coming out. I then tumble lubed them in Lee Liquid Alox. "


    Wait a minute....hold the phone. "The patched boolits will run into the lube sizer.....and measure 0.314" going in and coming out". (??????????)

    So, you are shooting 0.314" diameter (FINAL PATCHED DIAMETER) boolits in the rifle ? Is that correct ?

    If that is so.....there is your problem. The final patched diameter should be in the range of 0.323" - 0.325", depending on what your rifle likes best. 0.314" diameter is TOO SMALL. We actually have been over this ground before, to some extent. Is there some confusion here ? Paper-patched (and for that matter, plain cast) boolits must be just as large, or a bit larger than jacketed......otherwise, you get lots of gas cutting of the boolit base and sides......and lots of lead deposition (as well as the fact that the boolit will never be accurate, as it isn't even large enough to take the rifling properly).

    The correct size for jacketed in your rifle is 0.323". For patched, 0.323 or larger.....possibly 0.324" or perhaps 0.325" maximum. You must shoot boolits as large in diameter or larger than GROOVE diameter.....not BORE diameter.

    Hopefully, you made a mistake in your post (and intended to say " 0.324"....going in and coming out"). If not, then there is the problem (and a big one, at that).

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    Sorry, my bad...I did indeed mean 0.324" Through a bore that slugs out at a hair over 0.323"

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, you did say the bore was smooth and shiny?

    One of my rifles had a bore with fine sandpaper like texture. It stripped the patches. I fire-lapped it until a patch could survive the trip through it. It's still got all the fine pits in it but the sharp edges are gone. (Actually, most of my rifle bores are like that!)
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Just to clarify, you did say the bore was smooth and shiny?

    One of my rifles had a bore with fine sandpaper like texture. It stripped the patches. I fire-lapped it until a patch could survive the trip through it. It's still got all the fine pits in it but the sharp edges are gone. (Actually, most of my rifle bores are like that!)
    Nope, the M48, the one that I am working with now, has a bore that looks like frosted glass. No huge pits, but not smooth and shiny. The previous owner shot corrosive ammo through it and didn't clean it properly. The bore on the M48 is also slightly hour-glass shaped. i.e. tighter in the middle than at each end.

    I'll give it a check to see if it is leading all the way down the bore or not this afternoon. That may tell us something as well. If the bore is shaped like a blunderbuss, well, shooting patched may not work so well, eh?

    I also have a 24/47 that shoots GCCB's with a high degree of accuracy, and very minimal leading. It has a very nice bore, and is pretty much unmolested. I may bag working with the M48 and focus on the 24/47 if the consensus is that the M48 won't shoot PPCB's.

    What say yee? I hate giving up on the M48 though.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    No don't give up. I missed the bit about the frosted bore in the beginning. That is what's causing the patch failure.

    My suggestion would be to fire-lap, first with 600grit emery paste the with Autosol or similar (metal polish). The Autosol might work on its own. How I've done the Autosol bit is loading up then smearing the boolit with the stuff. It doesn't matter if some gets into the chamber - it'll polish the brass.

    I didn't do my 'normal' fire-lapping with the brass fire-lapping boolit I custom make for each rifle in my frosted bore Brit. I simply rolled the patched boolits in valve grinding paste, let it dry so as not to get into the chamber and shot 'em. When the bore began to take on a shine I tested normal patched loads and repeated until the patch survived. I think a follow up of Autosol would be warrented in my case.

    My pig gun required the vigorous brass fire-lapping to remove the layer of rust scale that was in the bore. I gave it a few patched lapps then went shooting. When I aquired the Autosol I just had to use in the pig gun. Now the patches stay intact all the way to the target! I need to up the powder charge and down the wheat bran filler (The filler protects the boolit from the muzzle blast it seems and the patch doesn't blow off).



    This was a lighter load but the same thing happens with the full load, only I the boolit gets destroyed on impact. A clay bank recovery has a piece of patch still on the boolit. Here it is.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  9. #49
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    Excellent pictures 303guy...

    Soooo...shoot some 600 grit non-embedding valve lapping compound through this thing? That would help the j-word bullet situation as well, wouldn't it. This thing "coppers up" pretty well as a normal thing.

    Just so I understand what I need to do here: I take a normal paper patched boolit and roll it on a flat plate of some sort charged with the lapping compound. Then I load it as normal? Reduced charge? Use something like 5744 or Trail Boss? Do I need to clean between shots? I'm pretty sure that after one or two I'll be lapping lead instead of the bore. Then shoot until the frosting is gone...however many shots that takes.

    I have never attempted this, so direction would be a help. ...or point me in the direction of thread on the subject. (My search-fu is weak at the moment.)

    Edited to add: I have some Meguires All Metal Polish that I use to polish up bolts and rifle actions on my shooter mil-surps. Use it on the truck wheels too when they start to get to grungy from use. It seems that I am half way there already!
    Last edited by offshore44; 08-09-2011 at 07:45 PM.

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I would think just a few 600 grit rolled boolits followed by your metal polish. Those might need a quite a few more but they can be used for 'normal' target shooting. I would think the trailboss idea is about right. It's what I would do anyway. (Or shotgun powder since that's all I have). My theory is to not go too light a load as I want obturation to get the compound into the groove corners but not so high that the presence of compound in the chamber becomes an issue (polishing compound that is - abrasive grit in the chamber is a no-no).

    The idea is not to remove the frosting but onmly to 'break' the sharp edges that catch on the boolit/patch/bullet. A textured finish is actually desireable as long as it's polished.

    I have rust textered Two-groove which does not copper foul at all and never needs cleaning. I do use a chamfer based bullet dipped into molten 'waxy-lube' so that the chamfer carries the 'frozen' lube. (The idea was to deposit the lube in the suppressor for corrosion protection). This rifle is scary accurate.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  11. #51
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Perhaps by-pass the 600 grit stage and just use the metal polish. It might just work fine.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  12. #52
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    Trail Boss it is then! ...and I just want to smooth the bore out, not eliminate all of the frosting, right? Then on to the metal polish. Gotcha'! And I just happen to have 25 patched boolits and 25 sized and primed cases sitting on the reloading bench at the moment. It's a bloody miracle, I tell ya'! Off to NAPA auto parts tomorrow...

    I'm jealous of you guys with the suppressors. That just makes sense to me, especially if you do a lot of shooting. I can get them here in my state, but it takes all sorts of bureaucratic foolishness and $200 bucks for a tax stamp. One of the sillier things we deal with.

    Oh, I missed the second post there... I'll give the metal polish a try first. I'll still get the 600 grit though. I gave Youngest Daughter's long term boy friend a vz24 for graduation from college. A whole kit for shooting that thing as well. Smoothest action I have seen on a military Mauser yet, but the bore is down right ugly. I may try this trick on that rifle and get him started with paper patching. He sure likes shooting my big bore CZ with paper patch. I may have ruined him.
    Last edited by offshore44; 08-09-2011 at 08:18 PM.

  13. #53
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    ...and I just want to smooth the bore out, not eliminate all of the frosting, right?
    That's my theory, yes.

    Someone posted what the 'ideal' hardness of the boolit should be so as to lapp the tight areas of the bore and not 'spring back' and lapp the looser areas. We're not talking of actually removing metal from the bore, just dulling those sharp edges and polishing the bearing surfaces.

    Good luck. I'll be looking forward to hearing of your success!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  14. #54
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    Thanks! Sometimes a word from the wise is all it takes, right?

    Man, I'm already contemplating patching for my .308... But one thing at a time.

  15. #55
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    Talking patch question?

    303Guy: saw your picture of the bullets that retained the patches all the way to the target and my question is this----if that were a 190gr. boolit(supposition) and it was being fired at around 1600--1750 fps AND that paper stayed on without any serious accuracy problems (1-2", hmm?) do you think that a deer hit with this bullet would be dead any slower or faster than "pretty much dead right now" and would the paper affect the taste of the Venison?

    by the way, that looked to be a damm fine Mushroom on the boolit . God Bless to all.

    Goofyoldfart. aka GOF and Grumpy.

    P.S. you guys are making me want to pp for my yugo m-48

    P.S.S. My take or guess on that diameter is around 65 to 75 cal expansion?
    Last edited by goofyoldfart; 08-11-2011 at 02:28 PM. Reason: forgot to add. CRSTGO.
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  16. #56
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    Ya, 303guy has posted some pretty good looking mushrooms in various threads.

    So, GOF, want to give this paper patching thing a try? In an M48? I'd say go for it! There is enough expertise here to make a good show of it, at the least!

    I've done it on the cheap so far...home-made bullet sizer, a bunch of paper that I collected for the 458 Win Mag, powder off the shelf in the garage...etc.

    I've got very little invested in this project other than some time. If it works out, I'll be tickled pink...if not the 24/47 shoots these same 190 grn gas checked pills at about 2,100 fps just fine.

    Plus, it would be good to hear of your experiences in giving this a try in this thread.

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The top pictured boolit is a 141gr and was about rsonic while the bottom one is a 206gr at 1600fps. That's the one for deer/pigs and in clay it turns inside out. I won't be changing anything on it for now unless I can up the velocity for more reach. The gun was intended as a close range rain and mud bush gun and it is all of that.

    It would be fun to patch for your yugo.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=offshore44;1362176]Ya, 303guy has posted some pretty good looking mushrooms in various threads.

    So, GOF, want to give this paper patching thing a try? In an M48? I'd say go for it! There is enough expertise here to make a good show of it, at the least!

    I've done it on the cheap so far...home-made bullet sizer, a bunch of paper that I collected for the 458 Win Mag, powder off the shelf in the garage...etc.

    I've got very little invested in this project.


    offshore44: how did you go about making your home-made boolit sizer? would be very interested to know! Thanks for any information. God Bless to all.
    A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  19. #59
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    Well, let's see...

    I purchased a 7/8" x 14 bolt at the hardware store for about two bucks. Then I drilled it out (crooked, as it turned out) with a 19/64" drill bit. Then I wrapped 600 grit emery cloth around a 1/4" drill bit and honed it out to 0.312". Put a little electrical tape on the end of the emery cloth strip to hold it on the drill bit. Increase the length of the strips as the diameter of the die gets bigger. The trick is to stop honing when the size is right...I had a bunch of 0.323" diameter gas checked boolits that I drove through to check the size of the die. Hone a little, drive a boolit through and check the diameter. When the size was where I wanted it, I just stopped honing. To get the taper in and taper out, I used 220 grit emery cloth on a drill bit and honed a taper. I then cut the bolt to the appropriate length. I have about an inch of threads and about an inch and half of the un-threaded portion. I then cut a long 5/16" bolt off just under the threads to use as a pusher... The 5/16" bolt is nominally 0.313, but runs slightly smaller than that. You can remove a little material if it is too snug a fit, by sanding. Very slightly crown the end of the bolt that contacts the boolit...I couldn't get it square enough to not push the boolit base out of square, but that problem is alleviated by the crown.

    I use it in my reloading press like a Lee push through sizer. The only tools that I used were a electric 3/8" hand drill, a hack saw and various drills. Oh, put a little light oil on the emery paper and use oil on the drill, the finish is better that way. Use a pilot drill to start the hole. I have a whole bunch of drills that I purchased at auction from a shipyard that went out of business decades ago for almost nothing, so I've got lots of interesting sizes to work with.

    Next time, I'll borrow a drill press to use so everything turns out square, and maybe a lathe to cut everything off square and true. For cheap and fast with what I have on hand, it worked out though. The plus here is that I can now make a push through sizer that is within 0.0001" of what I need. I can size a boolit to EXACTLY fit any bore I run across for about $2 or so and about two hours of time in the shop.

    I love cheap and fast in these cases. Now that I know what I need for the M24 / 47, I can make a better copy for long term use. I can also make a different one for the M48 with the different bore.

    Try it! You'll like it!

  20. #60
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    Talking push thru sizers, et al.

    303guy: you never did say what the mushroom diameter was on those bullets, would really be interested to know.) They sure are pretty though.
    offshore44: thanks for the info on the push through sizers. I had a sneaking suspicion as to how you may have done it.. turns out that we are on the same page ,then. thank you for the drill sizes--It saves me from having to look up on the index. I have the drill bits and a very tight drill press (1.5 thou run-out) and I do have the Patience to do the hand job (on the bolt of course) so all I have to do is slug the old girl and go to work on the bolt. Thanks again. God Bless to all.
    Last edited by goofyoldfart; 09-02-2011 at 01:14 AM. Reason: can't get my sentences right. CRSTGO.
    A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check