.303 Paper Patching Failure... Again!

[longbow]

So far my paper patching for the .303 British has not gone well and continues that way.

Originally I made a mould for my .308. The mould casts a smooth boolit of 0.301" diameter which is just what the Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook says they should be.

This boolit patched to groove diameter shot quite well from my .308 so I used slightly thicker paper to patch to groove diameter for my .303 Lee Enfield. Accuracy was poor. Not horrible but not good.

I tried a variety of papers and thicknesses with little change. I then decided to knurl the boolits which raised diameter to 0.304" which is 0.001" over my bore diameter.

Accuracy improved considerably but was still not as good as I think it should be.

I decided to try some Lyman 31141 170 gr. which cast at 0.310" and patched with 0.0015" tracing paper. This resulted in a patched diameter 0f 0.316". These were then sized to 0.315". These just fit into the throat and groove diameter is 0.314".

I also patched some with cooking parchment which gave similar end result and were also sized to 0.315".

The load was a starting load of IMR4064 for "J" bullets from a reloading book (don't have the book in front of me and don't remember exactly).

Accuracy at 50 yards was non existent! I had a few holes scattered on a 24" x 36" piece of paper! Round holes but all over and not many.

I have to think that the patch was failing though I did not check for leading. I carried on shooting GG boolits right after and accuracy was very good so if there was leading it was minor and gas checks must have scraped it out.

So, now I am wondering if I should lap or ream my smooth mould out to 0.304"/0.305" and try again that way. Accuracy had improved using the knurled boolits at 0.304".

Several people here are doing well using standard .30 cal. boolits patched up to .303 groove diameter so I thought I would try but it didn't work for me.

Boolits are ACWW.

Also, cartridge necks were annealed, case mouth bevelled, case mouths belled and a larger expander button used to suit the larger boolit giving about 0.014" inside neck (my RCBS expander button gave 0.310" neck which seemed hard on patches when seating).

Comments, criticisms, advice? All appreciated.

Longbow

[CJR]

Longbow,

Smooth sided cast bullets work for some if the velocity is not too great. The NRA commented that they incorporated 5 grooves on their two(2) PP designs to ANCHOR the PP. So apparently your knurling helped anchor the PP better.

When you PP the Lyman bullet, did you first size the CB to bore diameter before you PP it? If you just PP the CB and then sized, that may be the problem. Though some on this forum do that, it didn't work for me. I found that when the PP dried/shrunk it was a tight fit on the CB. However, when I final sized the PPCB, the CB diameter was reduced under the PP and the PP loosened up and stripped in the bore when fired. Result? Heavily leaded bore and non-existent accuracy.

Best regards,

CJR

[pdawg_shooter]

I have never had much luck with smooth sided bullets. Have had and sold at least half dozen of them. My .303 likes 311414 and 311384 sized .304 and patched up with 16# printer paper. I clip the tails, lube with BAC and run through a .313 die to remove the excess lube and "iron on" the patch. I run my patch to the start of the ogive or a bit past. Load with a powder that gives near 100% load density and full jacketed velocity. Works for me anyway. Your mileage may vary.

[docone31]

I use the Lee 185 .303 mold. I size to .308, then wrap with two wraps of notebook paper. When dry, I lightly dab Auto Wax on the patched casting, snip the tail half way, and run through a Lee .314 push thru die. The majority of the wax rubs off, the patch gets shiney, and I load with start load data with 4895 for that weight.
Once I stopped making it complicated, it became simple.
A very accurate load.

[longbow]

CJR:

No, I didn't size to bore diameter.

The Lyman 31141 casts at 0.310" so patched with two wraps of 0.0015" tracing paper comes out at 0.316" which is just 0.001" over the sizing diameter. I doubt 0.001" is enough to size the lead under the patch.

It seems to me that having the boolit that much over bore diameter is not right but several people here are getting good success with much larger than bore diameter boolits. I just thought I would try it.

I agree with you on the knurling. Not only did diameter increase but the knurling (annular rings actually not diamond knurl) probably hangs onto the patch so it can't slip.

I am leaning towards lapping or reaming the mould at least a couple thou then again knurling and trying again. My feeling is that at 0.001" to 0.002" over bore diameter then patched to groove diameter is the best route. I may lap or ream to get bore diameter then knurl to gain 0.002" to 0.003" diameter.

As we speak (text?) there is a group buy feeler for Mihec reproductions of the Lyman PP moulds so if they can be had at 0.303" diameter or better I may get in on it. At 0.301" I won't as I think it is too small for my 0.303.

In any case, I will have to do some more work and try some different diameters.

Thanks for the response.

Longbow

[longbow]

Look at that, I am such a slow typist I got a response while typing!

docone31:

Good to hear from you.

Yeah I recall you saying you size to 0.308" Mine was a little larger at 0.310" but patched then sized to groove. I wonder if that 0.002" extra is just enough to screw it up?

Maybe I should try sizing to 0.308" and use a little thicker paper to get to 0.315".

I should also add that the tracing paper wets quite well and is strong so I think it is good paper for patching though thin.

The cooking parchment is thin and very strong but it is coated with some non-stick oil or something so it does not wet well. I tried using Varsol to get the coating off/out but even that didn't work. Too bad, the paper is very strong. Anyway, it is difficult to work with and doesn't stick to itself well. I would not recommend it.

This is cooking parchment not waxed paper.

Longbow

[docone31]

Longbow, get a cigarette roller!
I soak my prepatches and roll them on soaking wet. They pop out lightly damp, and very tight. These then shrink when drying.
Depending on what rifle you are using, and what the barrel slugs out to, you might consider three wraps. That should give .319. This is using lined notebook paper. Also, I have on occasion used Clover lapping compound as lube with my patches. Definately increased my performance that way. Just a dab will do ya. Cleans out the bore.
My Smelly takes .314, however I have seen #4s take .319. Lots of room to experiment there. Also, light loads did not do well for me. My case is almost full with the base of the wrap below the shoulder.
Load like jacketeds.

[pdawg_shooter]

CJR:

No, I didn't size to bore diameter.

The Lyman 31141 casts at 0.310" so patched with two wraps of 0.0015" tracing paper comes out at 0.316" which is just 0.001" over the sizing diameter. I doubt 0.001" is enough to size the lead under the patch.

It seems to me that having the boolit that much over bore diameter is not right but several people here are getting good success with much larger than bore diameter boolits. I just thought I would try it.

I agree with you on the knurling. Not only did diameter increase but the knurling (annular rings actually not diamond knurl) probably hangs onto the patch so it can't slip.

I am leaning towards lapping or reaming the mould at least a couple thou then again knurling and trying again. My feeling is that at 0.001" to 0.002" over bore diameter then patched to groove diameter is the best route. I may lap or ream to get bore diameter then knurl to gain 0.002" to 0.003" diameter.

As we speak (text?) there is a group buy feeler for Mihec reproductions of the Lyman PP moulds so if they can be had at 0.303" diameter or better I may get in on it. At 0.301" I won't as I think it is too small for my 0.303.

In any case, I will have to do some more work and try some different diameters.

Thanks for the response.

Longbow

Good chance that light tracing paper is not surviving the trip down the bore. Size .304 and use 16# paper. Two wraps of 16# will give you .010 + or - depending on how tight you stretch it.

[longbow]

pdawg_shooter:

Yes, I am thinking the same thing. Neither the tracing paper or cooking parchment shot well and both are very thin. Strong but thin.

I am thinking that I got good performance with the .308 because the 0.301" boolit is bore size but I got poor performance with the .303 using the same boolit since it is at least 0.002" undersize for one .303 and about 0.003" undersize for the other.

My knurled boolit at 0.304" did noticibly better but I am thinking if I open up the mould to cast about 0.303" then knurl I might succeed.

If the Mihec PP mould buy goes and 0.303" or bigger is available I may go that route. The plan is to reproduce the Lyman PP .30 cal. boolits in 160 and 200 gr. and those also had grooves.

docone31:

I picked up a cigarette roller and didn't like it. I found I could wrap faster and just as tight on a board. I found the roller too finicky for me. Different strokes I guess.

I am wondering if the rifling depth and lead may be hard on the patch. The .303's seem to have deeper rifling than my .308. I have though about a little firelapping and may give that a try to smooth things up. The bores are good though and I just picked up a No. 4 in very good condition so will have to try PP in it as well.

The guns are all shooting GG boolit quite well so now I have to sort out PP boolits.

It is a dirty job but somebody has to do it!

Longbow

[303Guy]

Well longbow. You have several suggestions to try out. I'm going to add one more on the strength of the success I have just had today (third time in a row). My smooth sided boolits are really smooth when I size them for one rifle that needs a two-diameter boolit. I dry patch without bothering to remove the sizing lube which is a roll on the lube pad. I use a patche with minimal overhang which I call a 'skirt' as 'tail' doesn't describe it right. My alloy is scrap lead drain pipe with a piece of soldered joint added for the tin. I do not neck size (in fact, today's results were with new cases opened up to fired neck size). Boolit weight was 192gr, powder charge 40gr AR2209/H4350 with the small air space filled with wheat bran half way up the neck. Paper was lined notepad paper made in China (that may be important). Boolits were seated to flush with the neck base and were engaging the leade at that point. The bore-ride diameter of the boolit was .2974 patched up to .306 for a bore of .304 but is a little larger at the throat end. This boolit can be pushed halfway of the bore-ride section into the muzzle. The seating shank diameter is .318 (patched). The patch compresses some on seating but does not 'size' the boolit. Velocity was 2250fps.

This is todays result. This is from a sitting position at 100m.



At 200m the results were impressive too but I couldn't bring the hillside bank home!

A great aspect is that the scope was set for 180gr j-words.

Another aspect is that this is a brand new load and boolit for this rifle!

So, may I suggest that in your search for a load anf boolit that works, that you try this one too.

[longbow]

303Guy:

Another one of those "I wonder why?" things. What I have read about the old BP PP guns was that the boolits were patched with a strong 100% linen or cotton rag bank note paper.

Other recommendations are to use at least 30% cotton or linen bond paper.

Yet, many are getting better (or as good as) results using printer paper or notebook paper as you are.

What I am finding with the papers I am trying is that the stronger papers like the tracing paper I just used is that they do not seem to bond well after wetting and even when wrapped tightly and shrinking, the paper layers separate easily.

I tried some printer paper to patch with and while nowhere near as tough, it wrapped well and layers stuck together. I have not shot any of these yet though.

I also tried dry patching and got some good tight patches but again have not shot any of those either.

I plan to open up my 0.301" mould to 0.304"0.305" for a length at the boolit base equal to the case neck length which would make a two diameter boolit like yours resulting in a nose bore rider sort of like a paper patched 314299.

I want to get a paper that will wrap to final diameter without sizing after. I do have lots of "Canadian Tire" money which is printed on bank not paper and is about the right thickness.

Testing continues!

Longbow