Renegade results

[PatMarlin]

Mine has 2 wood screws on the tang. Wonder what year it is, or with T/C maybe parts is parts..

The wood on mine is near AAA. Was perfect til I dropped it..

[Boz330]

Pat, you really can't enjoy them till they get the first ding. After that you don't worry so much about dinging them.

I had one of the early 54 Renegades, had a 4 digit SN. With the 1-48 twist it would shoot Maxi-balls ok for hunting, which is what I bought it for, but I never had any luck with RBs or even the REALs.
That 425gr Maxi went through a deer like you know what through a goose. I actually had 2 lined up one day and was tempted to see if I could get both but didn't need that much meat.

Bob

[NickSS]

I have put thousands of patched round balls through 50 and 54 caliber barreles and have never had much trouble loading any of them. I generally use a spit patch when target shooting (I always have spit with me) and have fired my rifles over 100 rounds without cleaning over a two or three day period of time. However, When hunting I alway use a regular lube. I tried a lot of different ones over the years but the one I use most is just plain melted crisco. I dip the patches and set them on way paper to dry. I can generally get five or six rounds off before they get hard to load but I never shoot that much when hunting. I see a lot of guys who do not know how to load a patched ball struggle trying to push the ball down the barrel. If you want to use that technique get a brass range rod with a handle on it. Personnally I use a short starter to get the ball in the barrel. One good whak with my hand and it is started. Insert the ram rod and hold it about six inches from the end of the barrel raise it and plung it down hard on the ball. Repeat two or three times and the ball will be down on the powder in short order without straining your mussles. My experience is that I get all shots into one ragged hole at 50 yards and into around 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards. As I do lots of buckskinning I generally use 50 gr of FFFG powder out to 50 yards and go to 80 gr for longer shots. If they have a 200 yard target I use 110 gr of the same powder and aim high. Use hot water and soap to clean the bore. After wipping it dry I give it a good dose of WD 40 and run a dry patch to take out the excess. The WD saturated patch is excellent for wipping down your metal of the barrel and lock. If you have trouble loading the rifle using this technique there is something wrong with the barrel. Perhaps its like a TC White mountain carbine I bought several years ago that someone got all pitted by not cleaning it before I got it. Even after lapping the bore it was harder to load and fouled quicker so I sold it to someone else to deal with (I did tell him of the problem_.

[PatMarlin]

That's the way TC manual says to load em'. I never did any other way.

I love the shot guns- one's a 20ga and the other 12. Something about having one rifle to get all of your game like the smoothbore, with BP is really cool.

The 20 I have is a bastardised Lyman Deerstalker, with a TC smoothbore barrel. Someone spent some time, checkered the stock, and bedded it. I put one of those TC peep's on it, and it is one nice handling hunting rifle. Showing promiss in accuracy too, but I need more work with it. Prolly paid to much... $200, but I think it's worth it.

I don't have much time shooting BP, but I own three of them. 1 50 cal Hawken and 2 shot guns. What's the advantage or school of thought on using fffg?

[44man]

For all of the years I have messed with these guns, it was always stated that anything over .40 cal should use FFG because of pressure issues. Still lots of old guns out there that FFFG might be too hot in.

[versifier]

I don't know. I've played with both in .50 & .54 and I don't think you really have to worry about pressure problems with similar charges of ffG vs fffG. As long as it's not cocking the hammer! Accuracy goes all to hell long before the pressure gets into the cautionary range. Mostly I just use Pyrodex RS now as it's so much easier to find - closest shop that sells bp is an hour away.

[montana_charlie]

.490 round balls, bought.

Might be interesting to check the hardness of those store-bought bullets.

I once attended a 'rendevous shoot' which lasted for three days. On the second day I fired in a contest where a five-man team shot at a bunch of clay pigeons, hanging by their edges against a backstop. The team that broke 'em all in the shortest time won. This was done at fifty yards with no 'furniture'. You just stood, sat, or layed out in the grass and fired away.

Our team finished in about eight minutes (came in second) and I fired twenty-three patched balls. Obviously, that didn't leave time for wiping between shots, so it can be done.

When shooting from the bench, and wiping between shots, I always ran a bronze brush in and out once, then shook the 'crumbs' out with the muzzle down.
CM

PS - In defence of the team I was shooting with, I should say...
The clays were hung from two strings that passed through drilled holes in the rim. Two of our clays had one string cut by a bullet, and they ended up hanging 'edge on' to us.

We burned a lot of powder (and time) trying to break those two.
CM

[44man]

I learned a long time ago to shoot slow, hit every clay with each shot and you can beat the guys loading and shooting like mad. Ten clays with ten shots is a whole lot better then ten with 20 shots.
Even with a .535 ball and .020" patch, I have run over 200 shots in a day without having to wipe the bore when shooting silhouettes. Always took first or second place. Carried off a ton of groceries.

[joeb33050]

I measured the "Traditions" .490" balls at .4925"-.4945", and some .490" cast balls a guy at the range gave me at .488"-.491".
The TC patches I've been using say .018" , my mike says .016".
The Renegade barrel bore measures .500", groove .510", with a caliper.
I've been trying to get a .4925"-.4945" ball with a .016"/.018" patch in the .500" bore, and it ain't easy.
Ned Roberts suggests ball diameter + 1 patch thickness = bore diameter. Then I need a .0055"-.0075" patch with the Traditions balls.
I went to the Sally Ann today and got a cotton sheet that measures .0082"-.009" thick. I'll make lubed patches with this today, shoot tomorrow. I'm hoping I can load that Renegade without fear of rupture.

Yesterday I was investigating FFFg and my old Lyman 55 measure. The big front brass numbers are pretty close to tens of grains, means that set all three slides at "5" and it throws 50 grains. Also, the graduations on the black-rear of the gig slide are just about right, set at "50" and get 50 grains.
So I'm getting somewhere!
joe brennan

[floodgate]

joeb:

Yes, the Lyman No.55 still retains the calibrations carried forward from the older No. 5, and its predecessors back into the 1890's, originally in nominal grains of BP. Still wise to check actual weights and volums, though.

Doug

[catboat]

I haven't read all the posts yet, so if this repeats someones' I apologize in advance for redundancy.

I shoot blackpowder flinters in competition up in New England. It is pretty much standard for range use to do a quick wipe after each shot. This is to maintain a constant shooting bore condition, and also for safety (extinguishes any burning embers of powder remaining, so as to not ignite the next powder load coming in).

There are as many formulations of bore solvent/patch lubes as there are shooters. This is what I do, and it works well. I have shot T/C flinters and caplocks in competions, both with factory barrels and with aftermarket Green Mountain round ball twist barrels. System works for all.

My bore cleaner is also my patch lube. It's a pretty standard equal volumetric mixture of drug store hydrogen peroxide (to cut black powder fouling), Murphy's oil soap or generic equivalent (lube and clean), and rubbing alcohol (clean fouling). Some people add a bit a water soluble oil. Some add automotive antifreeze (ie Prestone). If you do, don't dilute it, use it straight. Good for cold weather (freezing conditions-but the rubbing alcohol works too). Ratios aren't critical.

I'll start from the end of a match. I clean the bore with a cotton flannel patch (I buy 1-2 yards from a fabric store and cut them with scissors into proper size, ~ 1 x1", 1.25"x1.25" etc (not critical). I use a brass cylindrical grooved jag, not a slotted jag. I also have a home made nylon muzzle protector on the cleaning rod to not wear out the muzzle (accuracy loss). Brass, aluminum or plastic is fine for muzzle guards. I wet the patch and swab the bore. Patch is wet, not dripping wet. If you can easily squeeze liquid out of it, it's too wet. Wetter is ok for end of session cleaning, but only my first couple of patchs are wetter than the others. No real reason behind this, just that too much liquid makes a mess from the touch hole, and drips around the lock area. Even a "pretty wet, not dripping wet" patch will be fine. It will give enough moisture to create a spray from from the touch hole as youpump the patch up and down the bore (cleans the touch hole).

The bore is clean in about 5 damp patches, and then I run 2-3 dry patches down the bore. I then run an oily patch (Marvel Mystery Oil) to protect it. For long term storage I use RIG grease in the bore.

When I start shooting, I run a couple of damp patches, then a dry patch. I shoot. Then I use one damp patch, and go up and down ~ 2x (2 ups, 2 downs). It's not critical. I just feel the bore's resistance. When the fouling is gone, it's smoother. It's not squeaky clean, like the end of day cleaning, but it's perhaps 90-95+ clean. Most important, is being a constant level of clean for each shot. Accuracy = constant conditions.

For loads, I like to use as large a ball and as thick a patch as I can reasonbly load. There is a load of subjectivity in that statement, I know, but it depends on the barrel (groove depth, number of grooves, width of lands and grooves). For a 50 caliber, range match, I like .495 - .500 diameter balls (old mould. Lee used to make a .498 diameter round ball). Patch material is normally ~ 0.015", and in my Green Mountain barrels, I can use .018" thick patch material.

Patch material is 100 pure cotton. I cut strips about 18" long, and about 1.25-1.5" wide. I put a couple of drops in the area the ball will be (uniformly damp, not wet), and place the ball over the muzzle, sprue up. I use a short starter (about 1/4" long) and give it a rap with my hand to set the ball-in strip patching below the muzzle. I then cut off the excess patchin material flush with the muzzle. This forms a perfectly centered patch and ball for accuracy. If I can't short start it with one rap of my hand (not using a hammer), it's probably too tight a combination. I use an intermediate starter about 4-5" long to PUSH the patched ball down the bore a bit further, so as to be able to transition to the ramrod. You then PUSH (not hammer, or beat) the patched ball to seat firmly (compressing powder) on the powder charge.

If I'm shooting in a "woods walk" (from the possibles bag, simulating hunting) I use .490" diameter balls, because it's a balance of ease of loading vs. accuracy. If you have to use a hammer to short start a patched ball, the combination is too tight.

Patching material doesn't have to be expensive. I look for 100% cotton material. The best stuff has a 1:1 warp:weft weave. This means there is on fiber north and south, then one fiber east-west. This means that there are minimal, and uniform stress on the patch when loaded. Many styles of fiber used for patching has non uniform bias. You can tell by pulling the potential patching material diagnonally in two direction. You will notice that it stretches more one direction than the other. You don't want that stuff.

Another thing about patching is the thickness. It's important to measure COMPRESSED thickness. Many types of potential patch material has thickness build into it due to the weaving design. Some .015" thick material will compress down to .007 or less, depending of course on how much you compress it. It may sound funny, but I bring a small caliper with me to the fabric store and test various fabrics with what I consider a reasonable and constant level of compression (again, subjective, but it's sort of "snug" vs "hard").

If you find the right stuff, and it shoots well, go back and buy a couple of yards before it goes. Some people call it "pillow ticking" others call it "pant pocket lining". Some people like the blue striped stuff, but that isn't always 100% cotton, and , it isn't a 1:1 warp:weft weave (has bias). I'm not a fan of it. The stuff I like is neutal colored material that looks like light canvas, that compresses to .015".

Wash and dry the patching material, as it comes with a starch sizing material to aid in manufacturing of clothes. Washing/drying removes sizing/starch, and makes the material soft.

Clean your bore very well. Maybe it's partly pitted, or just has hard fouling left in it. Use the bore cleaner I described earlier to remove the fouling. Higher levels of peroxide and alcohol will get rid of tough fouling, but peroxide is a strong oxidizer. It will make your bore generate a fine rust. The liquid vegetable soap seems to offset the rusting. You can clean with plastic bore brush, or possible brass (NOT stainless. The spirally "tornado" style bore "brushes" don't get into the 90 degree nook and cranny at the base of the rifling land/groove juncture.

Sometimes, if the bore feels rough, after good fouling cleaning, you can wrap some 000 or 0000 steel wook around an old bore brush, and work the ramrod to clean/polish the bore. Do it uniformly. There may be a ring of crud or corrosion down near the breach where the powder charge is located in "loaded" conditions.

I would guess that a reasonable accuracy level for a factory T/C factory barrel (1;48 twist) is ~ 2-3" at 50 yards. I wouldn't be surprised it would be less than 2" at 50 yards, for 5 shots.

For 50 cal round ball, I like fffg (3f) powder (I use Goex, as a have a bunch of it, but the stuff from Graf and sons is good too). I load up to 75 grains of 3f black powder in a 15/16ths" across the flats, and 80-85 grains in a 1" x-flat barrel. Try taking your load up to 75 grains 3f. 2f (ffg) powder doesn't burn as cleanly and accuracy is just a touch worse for me for range work.

Good luck. Also, if you cast, use pure lead, not wheel weight. Wheel weights are harder (figure you know that as this is castboolits.com), and don't deform easily enough for loading (patch, ball,rifling).

Is your muzzle worn? Hurts accuracy.
Also, seat your patched ball with uniform pressure on the powder on each load. You should actually hear/feel it "grunch" when you seat the patched ball on the powder. There was a study done evaluating the amount of pressure used for seating the patched ball on the powder. Accuracy was enhanced with a fair amount (can't remember the value, 10 lbs?). There was some device made that was essentially a stiff spring with a scale that would give you a reading of seating pressure (like a compression fishing weight scale/gauge reading).

Mark you ramrod with a mark (magic marker, piece of tape) on your ramrod with the ramrod all the way down the barrel (no powder) and mark it at the muzzle (you and put a file mark on the ramrod for that reference mark). Then, after gun is loaded (ie with 75 grains powder, or whatever you call a "representative load") let the ramrod sit on top of the loaded/seated ball, and mark the ramrod at the point it exits the muzzle. This way, you will hopefully avoid "short seating" the ball on the powder, a no-no for accuracy. If there is a ring of old built up fouling crud at that point, you will encounter resistance and think you are on the powder, and you may not be. You can also place the ramrod on top to the powder charge in the barrel (before patched ball is seated), measure that setting with a muzzle mark on your ramrod. The difference between the powder mark and the seated ball mark should be the ball diameter +one layer of patching, or ~ 0. 50". If you get something like .75" or 1.23", then you know you are stuck on bore crud, and not firmly seated on top of the powder charge.

If I remember correctly, if your serial number has a "K" in it, it means it was built from a kit. If build from a kit, you'll never know who did the work, or what what done to it (bedding, screws, barrel tenons and pressure).

Another thought, since you are having trouble loading, perhaps you are deforming the leading edge of the ball (battering with ramrod? shortstarter? hitting with a hammer?). Try a thinner patch, .010, .012" and a .490 ball (lubed). Don't beat on the ball/starter. Try to PUSH, not HIT, to avoid ball deformation in loading. Also made sure your loading jag is proper diameter to fit the .50 cal ball. If it does not match the curvature of the ball, you will deform the ball, and hurt accuracy.

The first thing you want to do is to get the patched ball to load "one hand rap with short starter" easily ( or PUSH loaded into muzzle and work up/thicker/experiment from there. The factory barrel twist of the T/C barrels are a compromise twist of 1:48". I haven't had much luck loading them hot (heavy loads). You may find 60-65 grains a good/reasonable load. The crack or boom sounds you are hearing are likely a result of a velocity flirting with the sound barrier (~ 1100 fps at sea level) . Go above or below it. Breaking the sound barrier destabilizes projectiles (and jets), causing poor accuracy.

Don't get frustrated. Be methodical. Good luck.

[PatMarlin]

Good info Catboat.

So you can use a smokeless powder measure with black powder? Not with cartridges right?

Spock Explain?

[catboat]

NO! Do not use a conventional smokeless powder measure for black powder.

One, ferrous (iron) materials of conventional smokeless powder measures are at extreme risk for static electricity discharge. The column of black powder would be a bomb. Severe bodily injury, burns, blindness and even death possible!!! Do NOT do this.

Secondly, ferrous materials in a conventional smoklelss powder measure will corrode from the black powder.

Last, as I understand it, the non-ferrous design of the Lee powder measure is not safe to use with black powder as there is great risk of static electricity being generated from plastic parts.

Double check with both Lyman and Lee for their take on using black powder in powder measures.

Measures made of brass are what you are looking for. Consult with the BPCR shooters how they are doing it. I believe Lyman made a version of their model 55 powder measure to use with blackpowder.

I'm a flintlock shooter. I'm either loading a handheld brass powder measure from a can, one shot at a time, or using a powder horn, loading a hand held measure. I have never used a modern style powder (rotating volumtric measure) measure for black powder.


One more safety rule: Always use a powder measure when loading a muzzle loader. NEVER load the gun directly from the main powder reserve (such as the powder horn or one pound canister of powder (black or pyrodex). A left over glowing ember in the bore will ignite the cascading powder and explode the pouring can of powder. You will lose you hand, and possible be blinded.

[PatMarlin]

Well yeah that's what I thought but for the reference to the Lyman 55 above.

The Lyman 55 has brass slides but it's still a steel housing IIRC. I think their BP moldel is the Model 5?

My TC manual has good instructions. That's how I learned. Just followed the recepie..

[wills]

There are a couple of theories about static and powder measures.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...ks/sparks.html


So far I have yet to blow myself up with the RCBS.

[catboat]

Another thought.

You might want to try the Lee Precision REAL (Rifling Engraved At Loading). The 50 cal lighter model is 250 grains. That may work well in the factory T/C 1:48" twist barrel. You need to lube it with a blackpowder lube (ie bore butter, or spg, or make a homebrew of beeswax, olive oil, parrafin wax, neatsfoot oil, type of lube-surf the net for some recipes. You do not use a cloth patch for this bullet.

The moulds are very reasonable, $20,. Use soft lead, not wheel weights if possible. One source:
http://www.grafs.com/casting/448

They are slightly tapered, so they load relatively easily. It's also a different system, which may be different enough to work in your set up. Call T/C or Lee for their thoughts.

[PatMarlin]

There are a couple of theories about static and powder measures.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...ks/sparks.html


So far I have yet to blow myself up with the RCBS.

I've got that RCBS wills. In fact tha's my favorite measure out of the bunch. Anyone git blown up yet?

[wills]

I haven’t, not yet.

[44man]

Catboat, it is great to read someone that thinks and shoots like I do. I just disagree with the static in powder measures. I've been using one for over 50 years. My current Redding has loaded many, many pounds of black powder. Static will not light off black powder!

[PatMarlin]

But what if that experiment was done in a confined space ala tube etc., etc.?

Could ya get DRT kilt right then?