Who says that you can't shoot lead from a Glock

[prs]

Without cleaning the gun until last night, I had shot 1,250 rounds of boolits through my Glock 23, this over a couple of weeks on occasion. Using Lee TL401-175-SWC with 95pb/2sn/3sb alloy air cooled and lubed with 50lla/40jpw/10ms and left to cure well. The propellant was TrailBoss and the load worked-up with the manufacturer's alternate directions, it is a mild for 40SW loading and I have not bothered to get the chrony out to clock it. I did check the barrel visually with bright light before each session, but never saw any reason to worry. Last evening it took about 4 Ed's Red soaked patches to get all of what appeared to be boolit lube residue out of the bore. I did get a tiny glint or spec of lead on the second patch. With the bore looking pristine clean, I than used a bronze bore brush and Ed's Red to scrub it vigerously and then ran Ed's Red soaked patches again with the third patch clean. No evidence of lead. From now on, I will do my first cleaning patches soaked with mineral spirits to more easily get the boolit lube residue out. I get more lead than that in my Ruger BVs if I shoot smokeless propellant. I think it is all about boolit fit and not mashing the boolits out of shape with a too tight crimp or final size die. YMMV always proceed or retreat with caution.

pr

[fecmech]

Back when I started reloading handguns(1970) with cast bullets I was told repeatedly that you could not shoot lead bullets in .357 magnums because they would lead badly. It was even in a lot of the shooting rags at the time! My guns evidently never got the memo because they didn't lead and were quite accurate. I don't own a Glock but I did have a Kahr 9MM 5 yrs ago that had the polygonal barrel.
It too never received the memo about leading as I put about 3500 cast rounds through it before I sold it. No problems, no leading, good accuracy. I personally don't think Glocks are any more or less prone to leading than any other type barrel and act accordingly. If someone thinks it's dangerous than he shouldn't load lead in his Glock.

[curator]

The two Glock Ka-Booms I witnessed were both caused by reloaded J-word bullets being pushed back into the case as they rode up the feed ramp. I find it hard to believe that bore leading alone can cause dangerous high pressure. A smooth barrel like the Glock polygonal rifles barrel should shoot lead just fine as long as the alloy hardness is correct for the chamber pressure and the diameter is correct for the bore size. I get leading in my Glock 23 (light grey "wash") when using 45/45/10 LLA/JPW lube but absolutely none with LBT "blue." Diameter .402, Boolit hardness is BHN 18 and pressure is about 25,000 psi

[dbldblu]

Back when I started reloading handguns(1970) with cast bullets I was told repeatedly that you could not shoot lead bullets in .357 magnums because they would lead badly. snip

The ammo companies used to use some really soft alloys back then and they would lead your barrel badly in no time. Those of us that cast our own can avoid this as you have.

[fecmech]

The ammo companies used to use some really soft alloys back then and they would lead your barrel badly in no time. Those of us that cast our own can avoid this as you have.

Exactly! Winchester Lubaloy bullets.

[milprileb]

I think Glock said it.

Its like parachutes, pack it and you jump it.

[Bwana]

I think Glock said it.

Its like parachutes, pack it and you jump it.

Bold print. It almost gives an air of authority. Almost.

I spent a lot of time scrubbing lead out of my father's two Colt Trooper 357s from using Lubaloy rounds.

[lcclower]

Lubaloy bullets? I traded off a Colt Python, 1971, because after a few rounds it shot somewhere between a modified and a skeet pattern with Lubaloy bullets. D'oh!

I cast WW with 1/6 Lino bullets and load them fairly hot. So far in my Glock 19, in my S&W 659 and in my son's G21 and Springfield .45, and in my daughter's .380 Bersa the only problem was that Lyman orange lube smoked up the place real bad. (.380 loaded with Bullseye, 9 & .45 loaded with Unique)

To expand Wayne the Shrink's full disclosure:

The Whitworth rifle was the instrument of one of the most remembered acts of black powder sniping. On May 9, 1864, during the Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse, Union General John Sedgwick was chiding some of his troops for lying down in a ditch to avoid Confederate snipers at a range of around 800 to 1000 yards. So the story goes - the general allowed that they 'couldn't hit an elephant at this range'. Sgt. E. R Grace of the 4th Georgia Infantry scored a head shot a few moments later, with his Whitworth rifle. As a result, the Union attack was delayed, and General Robert E. Lee won the battle.
(from http://johno.myiglou.com/whitworth.htm)

[milprileb]

There you go Bwana, all those negative vibes again.

In lower case: Don't like the message, move on in life !

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's a point that nobody has made on this subject,,, er any subject.

There is "knowing", then there is "believing"

If you understand what you know about a subject then you should be able to use that knowledge to the betterment of that subject.

IF you donot understand all you know about a subject, then you would believe someone casting doubt, thus perpetuating the ignorance.

If you know why someone tells you not to do something you can decide whether or not to do it. If you do not know why, then doubt will rule your decision. this is only natural.

The cure is education, not denial, and certainly not blind obedience.

Milprileb: State concisely why people should not use cast boolits in Glocks! Donot use the phrase "cuz Glock says not to!" as part of the explanination. We want to see a "technical reason" why this is dangerous.

Warning: you won't win this one.

Randy

[Bwana]

There you go Bwana, all those negative vibes again.

In lower case: Don't like the message, move on in life !

milprileb,

Me thinks thou doth protest too much. If you are detecting negative vibes, they are mere reflections.

[autopilotmp]

A good source for information on this subject is "The Glock in Competition". There is a chapter in this book called The Exploding Glock, Fact or Fiction? by Mark Passamanek. He loves his Glocks and says that you can shoot boolits from your stock barrel as long as you use 22bhn+ and clean often 100-150 rnds. He also states that he will not shoot lead through his barrels only jacketed. The chapter includes some interesting technical data on how pressures can build very rapidly in as few as 50 rounds fired. The info contained therin basicaly says that it is possible to shoot lead w/o issues as long as you keep the bore clean, but things can go bad very quickly. One instance cited a .2 Kpsi increase after 500 jacketed fired, but a 1.0 Kpsi increase after 50 lead rounds fired. The lead continued to climb as follows:

Kpsi
1 rnd 33.2
50 34.2
100 35.1
150 38.8
200 41
300 45

SAAMI max is 35 Kpsi (construction of the test fixture prevents the resulting pressures from damaging the barrels installed in it for tests)

The book also goes into detail about why the polygonal barrel specifialy is unsafe w/ lead boolits.

Not trying to convince anyone anything, just putting some info out that answers some of the questions on "why it is not safe". Do with it what you will, just be safe. You wouldn't reload or suggest to anyone to reload w/o at least one load book handy, why would anyone load for something that is noted as unsafe w/o finding all info available on the subject.

Book: The Glock in Competition, A Shooters How-To Guide by Robin Taylor w/ Bobby Carver and Mark Passamanek

[HammerMTB]

A good source for information on this subject is "The Glock in Competition". There is a chapter in this book called The Exploding Glock, Fact or Fiction? by Mark Passamanek. He loves his Glocks and says that you can shoot boolits from your stock barrel as long as you use 22bhn+ and clean often 100-150 rnds.

All very interesting, but flies in the face of my personal experience.
My .40 boolits are straight WW, BHN 10-11
175 grainers, they are doing ~975FPS average. It's not a hot load, but neither is it a wimpy load. It's loaded to make major.
The typical match goes 200 rounds. I'm not measuring pressure, but there's no notable change, neither in recoil or POA.
There is very little leading in the bbl. One of the things I like about Glock bbls are how smooth they are internally. The polygonal rifling seems to my eye to leave them with considerably fewer points for lead to grip than cut Ballard rifling.
There are a whole lot of factors to consider. The lube, even the powder burn rate will have an effect.
If you really want to get some lead stuck in your bbl, try PB Blocker. I did, and got leading quick! That wasn't the idea of the experiment, just how it turned out.

[fatelk]

I've heard about that before; pressure tests where the pressures rise after so many rounds. The problem I see is that they only say "use a hard bullet", which as we all know is less important that fit to bore and good lube. It would be interesting to be able to do a similar pressure test on a polygonal barrel using a properly sized and lubed bullet.

[Bwana]

To whom it may concern:

As you are probably aware of, this horse has been throughly cussed and discussed for many years and in many forums. The "facts" are there for anyone willing to find them. Too often people who have not tried, or have failed to successfully use, cast boolits in glock handguns pontificate about their ignorance and or failure on the subject. Does this pontification negate the knowledge put forth by successfully users of cast boolits in glock handguns? No, it does not. What it does do is muddy the waters and makes it harded for those seeking the truth to find it. That is what I take issue with.

[looseprojectile]

most of the sky is falling crud about how Glocks are unsafe with naked boolits.

My take on Glock guns with polygonal rifling is that the polygonal rifled barrels should be better than ballard rifling when using plain [un jacketed] boolits.

When I think Glock I think marginal unsupported chamber, weak, unsafe design. Not rifling type. Not to mention how the firing pin drags through the primer during extraction. [square and sharp]. Ejection timing not right?
When shooting a gun with "normal" rifling and it leads horribly, why does it not blow up? Probably because it has a safety factor of strength built in.
I confess that I have never owned a Glock. Not because I am afraid it could blow up but because I figure they are marginal and over priced for what they are.

Considering they are medium to high priced I think they should come with much fewer problems such the sluggish trigger pull and unsupported chambers and the threat that you might lose your hand.

I may own a Glock someday and I am sure that I have the ability to get one to shoot plain lead boolits without leading. I don't send my fine old model Ruger single action guns back to get the transfer bars installed either.
The only factory loads I shoot are either cheaper than reloads or free.
A friend just bought a Glock in 40 S&W caliber. I may go to the effort to load some reloads with my cast boolits and see where the problem could be. I may have to tell him that if I blow it up I will replace it.

Life is good

[W.R.Buchanan]

Loose: You are very correct on your assertions that Glocks can shoot cast boolits. But, let me disspell some of your other concerns about Glocks.

The first Glock barrels did in fact have,,, More of an unsupported chamber than "some other guns."

However from 2nd gen on they are "just as supported", as virtually all other auto pistols you can buy! I have measured the chamber dias on Springfield Armory XD's, Glock, Ruger, and several 1911s in .40 S&W.. The loosest was the Para 16/40 LDA I "owned". The Glocks were mid field as far as chamber dias.

The unsupported area of the chamber is the little crescent shaped area where the feedramp intersects the chamber. Oldest guns had more there. 2nd and newer guns have just as much as any auto pistol, as that's what it takes to get the cartridge into the chamber at an angle. As long as the web of the case is inside the supported area of the chamber there will be no problems. Pic is of a Gen 3 bbl.

Some problems have ocurred from reloading cases that have low webs and the ones that I have seen that were blown up, all were marked "FC" and were produced between 1990-96.. Most of these cases are long gone, and newer brass of all brand names has a considerably stronger web design.

The Glock unsupported chamber "mantra" is largely a mis-understanding perpeterated by the unknowing to describe something they don't understand. NO AUTO PISTOL has a completely supported chamber. Only revolvers have that feature.

As far as the pricing on these guns. Extreme Full pop for most models is $629 with street pricing more like $500, and it is pretty easy to find desirable used models for <$400. Not many quality guns for less than that, and have you priced a Kimber1911 lately. The one I like is that Black 5" ProCarry .45 and it is $1999!

The beauty of a Glock is first, the parts are cheap, and second they are completely interchangable with no fitting or other bs required. So even a well used one can be brought back to near new for $50.

The trigger is what it is, and can be mastered. It just is not a 1911 trigger. But I must point out,,,, no other striker fired pistol has a trigger that is any better.

Glocks are like VW's were in the 60's, they are ubiquitous, they are every where. They got that way for several reasons, but the main one is they are the easiest pistol to learn how to shoot well that there is. Also they are extremely well made tools, and they work everytime. But note: I said they are "tools".

Shoot your friends gun, but realize going in that it is not a target pistol, it is a self defense tool. You should see what I'm telling you very quickly. They are a very good friend to have if you are in need of one.

Randy

[BAGTIC]

It may be a Glock barrel but it is not a polygonal barrel.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I suggest asking Glock.

They say not to...

Rich

[fecmech]

I suggest asking Glock.

They say not to...

Rich

They also tell you not to shoot reloads period.