seating, lube, cleaning question.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I have been having a problem with my brass having black streaks and some type of soot on them after being fired. I think that my lube is causing it. I am using Carnuba Red and pan lubing. I am using an "M" die to expand the case enough that the first band of my (Lee 158 RNFP) boolit can slip in. I am using a heavy crimp. I was wondering if my lube is somehow getting on the case as it is fired. The brass is new and after firing it has sticky soot that wipes of some but leaves a stain in the brass. The brass does not seem to have any lube on it before it is fired. On an up note, the round is really accurate.
It is the sticky part that has me bugged.

[williamwaco]

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I have been having a problem with my brass having black streaks and some type of soot on them after being fired.

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Charlie, You did not mention your load. Based on your bullet, I am guessing it is a moderate .38 special load.

It is the sticky part that has me bugged. - Wax is stickey. No surprise here.

Heavy crimp. Not necessary unless you are talking about 44 mag or greater recoil. Set you die to produce a barely visible roll crimp.

Brass is clean before and waxy/sticky/sooty after firing. This is, in my experience, always caused by light loads that do not produce enough chamber pressure to expand the cartridge case to seal off the chamber from the expanding gasses. Normally these gasses are blown out the barrel and the cylinder gap. In your case they are also being blown back around the outside og the cartridge case.

It is really accurate: Most target loads are very light and very accurate.

You can clean off ( most ) of this stain with any solvent. Don't need anything exotic or powerful. But - only part of it. I shoot a lot of .38 special loads that produce this same waxy film. I find that the only way to keep the brass clean it to tumble it after every loading.

The good news is that if you like this load, your cases will last forever.

How about some details on the load and the firearm?

[geargnasher]

Yep, not enough pressure to seal the brass. Don't fault the lube, it goes where the pressure and space allows.

Gear

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Sorry about that guys. The load is 13 grains of AA#9 with a heavy crimp using a 158 gr. .3585 RNFP. The round is real sooty but shoots good. Maybe I need to get to get it up more towards max. This load is being shot out of a GP-100 with a 6" barrel.
I really like Carnuba Red. That is not one of the changes I plan on making. A load of 16.3 grains of H-110 does not do this but that load is pretty heavy. I just thought that there was a fair amount of pressure with the AA#9 at 13 grains. I guess that is what I get for thinking. I am not concerned about recoil. With a scope mount and an Ultra Red dot scope on this full lug, 6" revolver, even the 16.3 of H-110 can be easily fired with one hand. This is not the case with my 3" SP-101! You better hold on to that little bugger! (I usually use a much lower charge in it)

[44man]

Even max charges of 296 will cover brass with lube in the .44 and .45. The stuff does not even tumble off in spots.
It is just a part of shooting cast.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Thanks. That is good to know. I didn't know if I was doing something wrong or not. I won't let it bother me now.

[williamwaco]

Sorry about that guys. The load is 13 grains of AA#9 with a heavy crimp using a 158 gr. .3585 RNFP. The round is real sooty but shoots good.

Well, There goes my idea about the light .38 special load.

13 grains of No 9 is NOT a moderate load. Extrapolating from my manuals, that load is approaching 40,000 lbs ( CUP ).

I loaded 50 .357s today with 11 grains No 9 and the Lee 358 158 SWC TL. This is my first attempt at working up a load with No 9.

I am sure they will shoot good but if they mess up my brass like you described, I will be disposing of two pounds of No. 9 and returning to my old standby 2400.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

If you would, let me know how it turned out for you. I am using WW with 2% Tin added.

[williamwaco]

If you would, let me know how it turned out for you. I am using WW with 2% Tin added.

Made it to the range today with my first successful A No. 9 load.

As reported yesterday, I loaded 50 .357s with 11 grains No 9 and the Lee 358 158 SWC TL. This is my first attempt at working up a load with No 9.

I am a plinker. I am much more interested in maximum shooting fun, accuracy, minimum cleaning. Not in maximum loads.

I estimate this load at 950 - 1000fps.

It is deadly accurate and amazingly, shoots to exactly the same point of impact as my favorite .38 special load of 4.0 gr A No.2 with the same bullet.

At 25 yards using sandbags, I was rewarded with two 5 shot groups measuring .77 and .91 from my 15 inch Contender with 8x scope. Both of my S&W 6 inch .357 mags produced several six shot groups measuring 2.5 to 3 inches with factory sights. There was NO measurable leading. About four passes with a bore swab saturated with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber produced a perfectly clean bore with no brush needed.

For your information, Charlie -

I fired 35 rounds of this load in two revolvers and one single shot. All the cases from the Thompson Contender ejected perfectly clean. The two revolvers cases had a normal amount of carbon - very light. ( In my experience, you are never going to get perfectly clean cases from a revolver. ) five or six of them had the black, sooty, waxy, lube smear back about a fourth inch from the mouth of the case. None of them were any where near as dirty as what you described in your original post. I think I can safely say that your problem was not caused by the A No.9 powder.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Thanks for the report. I must be doing something not quite right. I will continue to try to get this figured out. It's no big deal but it is something I want to correct if I can. I am also pleased with the accuracy of this powder.

[44man]

Thanks for the report. I must be doing something not quite right. I will continue to try to get this figured out. It's no big deal but it is something I want to correct if I can. I am also pleased with the accuracy of this powder.

NO, forget it if you have no leading and accuracy is good. Just put up with a little lube and carbon. Revolvers are more dirty.
There is a pressure drop in the case as the boolit passes the gap. Brass will retract from the chamber wall.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Thanks 44man. I will forget it. Now on to the next project!

[theperfessor]

I wonder if the lube stains are being deposited on the cases in the cylinders adjacent to the one being fired - i.e. swirling gas filled with waxy lube vapor. Have you fired one round only and then checked to see which cases are stained? Wouldn't show up in a Contender. Just a stray thought...

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I have not tried that yet but I will. My wife and I are going to the range Friday after work if it isn't raining. I will try that and see. It is no major thing, just something I was wondering about.

[theperfessor]

Have a good time at the range! That's what it's all about.

[geargnasher]

I wonder if the lube stains are being deposited on the cases in the cylinders adjacent to the one being fired - i.e. swirling gas filled with waxy lube vapor. Have you fired one round only and then checked to see which cases are stained? Wouldn't show up in a Contender. Just a stray thought...

That happens sometimes. I will get one clean case and five dirty ones, the first one fired from a clean chamber will seal while blowing soot in some of the rest. By the time the cylinder makes full circle, all but the first is filthy.

CTT, based upon your powder selection and load data, I'll retract my original estimate and say that I think the powder is too slow for clean cases, regardless of the charge. The boolit is in the pipe before pressure maxes out, so like 44man said there will be blowback, and the case might be still expanding as the boolit base clears, rather than before as with faster powders. Still, if it shoots straight and doesn't lead, I'd say you have a winner, who cares about sooty cases anyway?

Gear

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Using H110 @ 16.3 grains with a 158RNFP (actually 162 gr.) and using Carnuba Red, and a heavy crimp, I have clean brass on the outside and inside. I am just experimenting with different powders and loads. Someday, I would like to load up a thousand rounds or so to keep in reserve. Just because. I will have to decide what combo of powder and lead I want to use though. This is the fun of casting and reloading. I have so many choices that the guy who buys at Wally World does not have.

The above load is what I am doing and does not mean I endorse it for anyone else.