What Gun?

[Don McDowell]

G, it's been my experience that when you load a 40-65 up with the 400gr + bullets and the heavily compressed powder charges it needs to get the velocity to hold up at long range, you gain little in the recoil saving dept.
The 45-70 will hold up better in wind conditions at long range.
Last but not least I almost detest starline brass and that's the only route to properly headstamped brass.
But having said all that I do know some shooters that have very good results shooting the 40-65, so if that's the cartridge you're dreaming on, then by all means go for it.

[Gunlaker]

If you go with the BPCR you may want to save a few bucks in your budget for a trigger job. I recently acquired a used Browning BPCR and it's going in today to get the trigger reduced to 2 1/4 lbs. I've had this done on my Browning Traditional Hunter and I find it makes a big difference for any off hand shooting you do.

Chris.

[.452dia]

Thanks guys,
I'm not recoil shy so I'm not worried about the 45-70 in a gun that heavy. I have fired an Italian made 45-90 and 45-120 that a friend of mine owns. He will probably be selling the 45-120 soon as it is too much gun for him. He doesn't shoot bpcr's competively but loves to shoot Cowboy Action, he also has a farm with a 500 yd range. I'm not convinced the 40-65 is what I want and thats why I asked for opinions. I once had a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 and had the dies and mould for 405 and 500 grain bullets. I loved that rifle and still regret selling it but this same friend talked me out of it.

[Don McDowell]

I believe the trigger on this Winchester bpcr is adjustable. Howsomever it's just fine as it came from the box and as of now anyway needs no special attention.

[montana_charlie]

1. How do the Italian Imports compare in quality to the Winchester/Browining Hi wall rifles?

From the beginning of this thread it has been apparent that the hiwall design is your heart throb. You ask for information about Sharps and rolling blocks, but there is no changing your fundamental lusting.

Since you did ask about Italian guns, I'll just mention the Pedersoli Hiwall.
I don't know it's current price ... or how it relates to the cost of a Browning/Winchester from Japan.

But, Pedersoli builds accurate rifles with fine barrels.

CM

[Bullshop]

John
I would like to hear more about the roller in 40/50.
Is it the straight or the necked? I might be interested if its still available.

[Black Prince]

452

I shoot a Browning BPCR chambered in 40-65. The Browning I have came with a .200 throat and I can seat my 430 grain Hoch nose pour bullets out on the second drive band. The case will then hold about 75 grains of compressed powder. Don is exactly right when he says when you do that, you save nothing in recoil compared to the 45-70. I used to shoot a 45-70 Pedersolli Sharps in competetion until I got the Browning and gave the 45-70 to a young fella just getting started in the sport. He has four kids, welds for a living, and couldn't afford a rifle. There are tmes I wish I had the 45-70 back until I see his face on the firing line and I know it's better that he have it. There is also generally more commonly available gear for the 45-70 than there is for the 40-65. The 40-65 will take down the rams at 500 meters reliably, but if you start shooting much past that range, the 45-70 is the way to go.

[.452dia]

From the beginning of this thread it has been apparent that the hiwall design is your heart throb. You ask for information about Sharps and rolling blocks, but there is no changing your fundamental lusting.
CM

OK, I admit that the Hi Wall has my attention and so far seems to be what I'm looking for. I have fired Trapdoors and Sharps that belonged to other people and the two Pedersoli Hi Walls I mentiond but I have never owned one or shot any of them enough make any judgement on which is the best. The old Navy Arms rolling Block I owned back in the eighties was a 38-55 and I never got the time to really give it a chance so I sold it. Lusting may be a little strong but I definitely have a high interest in the Hi Walls.

[montana_charlie]

I have fired Trapdoors and Sharps that belonged to other people and the two Pedersoli Hi Walls I mentiond

You never mentioned shooting any Pedersoli Hiwalls.
If you meant that mention of two 'Italian rifles in 45/90 and 45/120' ... Pedersoli doesn't build their hiwall in (either of) those calibers.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipo...high-wall.html

CM

[wills]

They are if you install a tang rear sight or one of the traditional buckhorn flip up ladder sights. 8)

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBoo...sil-r-book.pdf

I should have been more specific. For silhouette it has to be originally black powder, manufactured pre 1895 or replica thereof. There is a link to the rules.

[Black Prince]

Actually Wills, if people know the sport, you don't have to do that. We have the rule book memorized. But this forum is open to all people, and some of them talk about things when they should be listening. No harm done. 452 seems to be on the right track. You and Don seem to have more patience than Charlie and I do with that kind of thing. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet. The four of us were around and involved when this sport was just beginning. Some of us have rule books marked "Provisional" before the rules were even finalized. I have a Siluetas Metalicas rule book like that around here somewhere, but can't find it because I am looking for it. It'll show up tomorrow. See photo below.

[.452dia]

You never mentioned shooting any Pedersoli Hiwalls.
If you meant that mention of two 'Italian rifles in 45/90 and 45/120' ... Pedersoli doesn't build their hiwall in (either of) those calibers.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipo...high-wall.html

CM

I really don't recall what make they were, I just know they were Italian and I remember the calibers. Like I said, I don't claim to even be a novice when it comes to BPCR's, that why I asked you guys.

[Black Prince]

You are amoung kindred spirits here 452, so don't feel like a novice. These guys know their stuff and you couldn't be in a better place to get good information and help. And once you start shooting and get to know other BPCR shooters, you will come up to speed quickly. And as Wills has mentioned, many of those shooters are trading guns all the time so all kinds of things like moulds, sizers, loading dies, and other things you'll need are always comming available and usually, at good prices. I've met a couple of knuckleheads in this sport, but they don't last very long. Most of the BPCR shooters are the salt of the earth and will help you any way they can.

[.452dia]

Thanks Black Prince,
I got interested in BPCR shooting when I met a few folks that shoot in Southern Virginia. I live in Northern North Carolina so I could join either a VA Club or an NC Club. The folks I met so far have been great and thats what makes it fun.

[Don McDowell]

452 I don't know much about the distances involved, but I'm betting if you would make your way into Georgia to spend a weekend shooting a match with Black Prince and co. you would learn an encyclopedia full of stuff about these bpcr rifles, and have a heck of a good time doin it.

[John Taylor]

John
I would like to hear more about the roller in 40/50.
Is it the straight or the necked? I might be interested if its still available.

The 40-50 sharps is a strait, make brass from 30-40 Kreg by cutting at the shoulder. This rifle weighs 11 pounds 10 ounce approximately. The barrel is stainless octagon. Action is a new Navy Arms in the white. Wood is new Navy Arms. there is a chip at the heal that has been repaired ( probably broke in shipping ). Brass butt plate and barrel band. Barrel has no dovetails, owner wanted to mount a scope. When I called to ask about scope placement I found out he had died from a stroke. Rifle has not been fired yet. I believe the groove diameter is .408", don't remember the twist but if you interested I will find out.

[Black Prince]

452

Don's suggestion to visit here and shoot is a good one. I belong to two area clubs and shoot in various matches at another. The three clubs are all within 10 to 30 minutes driving time from my house, and River Bend is only 8 miles from here. In fact, when the wind is out of the south, I can sit on my deck and not only see River Bend Gun Club, but I can hear (faintly) the rifle shots being fired there. If you look at the photo's of part of the River Bend range, the mountain you see in the background is where I live up near the top on the south side.

http://www.pcsc.us/
http://www.cherokeegunclub.org/index...=display&pid=7
http://www.rbgc.org/buffalo/buffalo_rifles.htm

I don't belong to the River Bend Club because it cost 900 dollars and although I'll gladly pay the match fees, I am not going to pay any 900 bucks to shoot my rifle there. They have nice facilities, but they are not that dang nice. PCSC let's people over 65 shoot for a hundred bucks. If you are retired militayy or law enforcement, and I am both, you get another 25 bucks knocked off. So I shoot there for 75 bucks a year (or that is what it cost for the last four years since I turned 65) and have been a member for the past 23 years. Cherokee is a little more expensive, and it is the most distant range from my house, so I am considering dropping my membership there and just paying the match fees like River Bend.

But we have several very decent ranges to shoot near here, and indeed, we shoot the Southeastern Fall BPCR Regional Mid-Range Target Championships at River Bend every year and I'd be happy to help you get registered to shoot in any certified match, or just shoot one of the monthly matches. We are just a bunch of old pharts who like the smell of black powder burning and the distant CLANG of a big bullet hitting a steel ram at 500 meters. Come moan down.

[.452dia]

452 I don't know much about the distances involved, but I'm betting if you would make your way into Georgia to spend a weekend shooting a match with Black Prince and co. you would learn an encyclopedia full of stuff about these bpcr rifles, and have a heck of a good time doin it.

The Virginia Club I referred to is a splinter club off a national club and I think they shoot all over the country. Several years ago I visited a mixed match of Muzzle Loader Events and BPCR Matches held in the Mtns. of Virginia. I shot my Lyman 54 cal. Plains Rifle and had just as much fun as the guys with the custom built guns and didn't embarass my self. Some folks brought campers and some enjoyed wilderness camping for the week with the events starting on Sat. Many were dressed in period dress but everyone was friendly, helpful enjoying and the event (even though it rained most of the time). I was particularly impressed with the wilderness camp setups and period or handmade tools. The openfire cooking with wild game was a treat but I think I ate the best biscuits, cornbread and pinto beans I have ever had. These folk were serious. I took my daughter (12 at the time) with me and to this day she wants to go to another.

[Don McDowell]

Yessir those rondezvous' were a lot of fun. BPCR shoots are a little different atmosphere, but the people are alot the same.
Way back when I won one of those Lyman rifles, a 54 flinter, and yes it shot just as well as my custom made flintlock hawken that cost about twice as much as the Lyman.
Unfortunately the quality the Italians put into their muzzleloaders don't always carry thru to the bpcr's..

[Black Prince]

Well if you like to shoot with "splinter" groups, the Church Of the Painful Truth (COPT) is about as "splinter" as you can get. You are also welcome to shoot with us. We don't charge any dues or match fees, and you get what you pay for. This is all done at a private hunting camp in south Mississippi with a nice big creek on it, and camping grounds for trailers, motor homes, or tents. Here are some photos. Study them carefully before you decide because you may not want to be associated with this nefarious bunch of ner do wells.



That would be me there kneeling with the COPT tee shirt. This is part of the 2011 group. ( We have been doing this since 1990) The big guy with the dark glasses standing behind me is from Waynesboro, Virginia and comes most every year. The guy on the far left is from Nickelsville, Virginia and comes every year and is two times USA long range pistol champ. The guy on the far right is from Colorado and comes every year. We have had people come from California, and we had a great guy come from Canada every year until he died two years ago. His last wish was for his ashes to be spread out here and I did that at a solem ceremony of the COPT two years ago.



This is part (the early birds) of the 2009 group














And uhhh, we have been known to shoot bowling ball mortars and other stuff as well, but we ain't NRA certified.