Paper Patch Advice.

[SharpsShooter]

Something I dont understand is why are the patches going 50 yards? I have never had one go more than ten feet. What kind of barrel is it? Is it left hand twist? These boolits are patched for right hand twist so the leading edg of the paper can catch the air as it spins. Should tear the patch off at the muzzle and be blown not more than a few feet.
Perhaps the 50gn charge is not producing enough pressure to press the patch to the bottom of the grooves to scor the patch. Normaly the patch should come apart at the land cuts.
BIC/BS

Friend, that makes two of us. It is a heavy contour Badger 1:18. Patches were fluttering around like bottle rockets gone wild. If 50gr of cartridge Goex won't bump it up, I suppose I could try Swiss, but I am going to be limited on powder space due to the short throat no matter what I select. Apparently my 1895 Marlin is better suited to the PP than my Sharps as it did better. Go figure.

SS

[SharpsShooter]

I think the grease was going past the bullet and sticking the patch to the bullet .
my patches are found within 5 feet of the muzzle .I roll them left handed and get confetti .when I roll them right handed I get unwrapped patches with cuts in the patch to match the lands. the black burns so much faster than white powder the grease cookie was moving before the inertia of the bullet was overcome. ...Dean

There was considerable lube still in the bore and no patches were recovered. Just don't make good sense.

SS

[Bullshop Junior]

Just to humor me would you be willing to go with just the lube that comes on the patch, and eliminate the wad altogether for a couple shots? Adjust the powder charge up to compensate for the change. Other things that come to mind are, the taper crimp may be reducing the diameter of the soft patch/boolit. Same goes for sized cases. I use only fireformed unsized cases for PP. Stabbing in the dark yes, but ???
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

Does the patched part of the boolit engrave or touch the rifling firmly? If it doesn't, then there is your problem. Any run to the rifling with a patched boolit usually is disasterous, black or white powder.

[powderburnerr]

There was considerable lube still in the bore and no patches were recovered. Just don't make good sense.

SS

the rear wad bent folded collapsed or something to that effect .the patch was ignited by the powder . burned patches will not shoot and sticking ones dont shoot either .

I shot a lot of 45-70 with white and pp seated deep and had a lot of grouse loads ... whirring into the distance,,,
When I quit wet wrapping things worked better in the rifle .I also tried sizing to glaze the patch with dismal results .

the second wad on the cookie makes the lube act like an O ring on a piston the more pressure you exert the tighter it seals and the bullet base backs up the front wad stopping lube movement until the bullet gets moving
sounds as if to me...........Dean

[Bullshop Junior]

I concur with 45 2.1 with a patched boolit the patch should be engraved on chambering.
BIC/BS

[SharpsShooter]

Just to humor me would you be willing to go with just the lube that comes on the patch, and eliminate the wad altogether for a couple shots? Adjust the powder charge up to compensate for the change. Other things that come to mind are, the taper crimp may be reducing the diameter of the soft patch/boolit. Same goes for sized cases. I use only fireformed unsized cases for PP. Stabbing in the dark yes, but ???
BIC/BS

I'd be tickled to ignore the cookie as it is a extra step in the process. Yes I can eliminate the .030 veggie wad and bring the charge up to compensate. I may be able to get 60gr (compressed) in the case and still seat the boolit.

SS

[SharpsShooter]

Does the patched part of the boolit engrave or touch the rifling firmly? If it doesn't, then there is your problem. Any run to the rifling with a patched boolit usually is disasterous, black or white powder.

45 2.1,
I have read the same. This boolit goes .457 on the nose just before the patch and it takes a sturdy thumb to seat it fully to clear the breachblock. I believe it to be tight to the rifling, but could be mistaken.

the rear wad bent folded collapsed or something to that effect .the patch was ignited by the powder . burned patches will not shoot and sticking ones dont shoot either .

I shot a lot of 45-70 with white and pp seated deep and had a lot of grouse loads ... whirring into the distance,,,


When I quit wet wrapping things worked better in the rifle .I also tried sizing to glaze the patch with dismal results .

the second wad on the cookie makes the lube act like an O ring on a piston the more pressure you exert the tighter it seals and the bullet base backs up the front wad stopping lube movement until the bullet gets moving
sounds as if to me...........Dean

That is a good description...grouse loads

[SharpsShooter]

Heck, one other thing......Matthews says he always cuts off the twisted or folded tail before loading a patched plain base boolit. Anyone agree or disagree?

SS

[45 2.1]

I have read the same. This boolit goes .457 on the nose just before the patch and it takes a sturdy thumb to seat it fully to clear the breachblock. I believe it to be tight to the rifling, but could be mistaken.

If your shooting BP, the exposed nose should be a firm push to seat over fouling to get good accuracy and the patch should dirty itself on the lands/throat area. A good contact that shows the start of the rifling on the patch when withdrawn when your at the correct seating depth.

Heck, one other thing......Matthews says he always cuts off the twisted or folded tail before loading a patched plain base boolit. Anyone agree or disagree?

I twist, let them almost dry, but the tail is still slightly damp and trim the tail off with nippers and put the tail down on a hard surface and twist it closed and flat, then let dry all the way before lubeing the patch.

[powderburnerr]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...MAG0002cut.jpg

here e is haw a sharps cartridge is supposed to look

[powderburnerr]

figgered out the picture thing .. now just need to learn how to type....Dean

[Bullshop]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...MAG0002cut.jpg

here e is haw a sharps cartridge is supposed to look

Yes that is what a Sharps cartridge looked like when it was loaded for a Sharps chamber. SharpsShooter has an saami chamber. The origonal Sharps chamber was very much the way an saami 458 Win mag chamber is with long free bored throat. In fact if you load PP out to engauge the lands in a 458 chamber it looks like a Sharps cartridge with a belt. And yes the 458 does shoot PP very well.
So with conventional throat SS cant seat long as in origonal Sharps loadings.
Tomarrow God willing I will dig out some data and photo's of some BP/PP loads fired from my match rifle. This 1885 Browning has the same twist and throat as SharpsShooters rifle.
The Farmingdale Shiloh's had origonal type throats for PP. When used by the ignorant with grease groove boolits seated to the crimp groove those wonderfull rifles had a reputation for poor accuracy. Before Quiggley they could be found at shows for very reasonable prices.
I remember a chap looking over an Italian Siles Sharps at a show and asking his pard * is this one of the bad ones* and his pard says * no thats one of the good ones*. Go figure!
BIC/BS

[Marlin Junky]

I'm just getting interested in PP boolits with smokeless powder but haven't actually made/fired any yet but have read "The Paper Jacket" by P. Matthews. What puzzles me is that Matthews is talking about accuracy at 2200 fps with a lead/tin alloy of 97/3 percent. I would think major boolit base distortion would take place under these conditions.

MJ

[45 2.1]

I'm just getting interested in PP boolits with smokeless powder but haven't actually made/fired any yet but have read "The Paper Jacket" by P. Matthews. What puzzles me is that Matthews is talking about accuracy at 2200 fps with a lead/tin alloy of 97/3 percent. I would think major boolit base distortion would take place under these conditions.

MJ

Your right, it does. The entire base is covered with an exact outline of a bunch of powder grains half engraved into the base. It does not hurt accuracy though. I have shot many long range groups under MOA with smokeless patched boolits.

[L Ross]

I'll throw my meager experience in here. I was gifted a RCBS 550 gr. PP mould. It throws a .450" smooth sided straight non-tapered bullet. Patched with air mail paper thet mic'd .458" I wiped a smidge of Emmert's lube on the wrapped bullet prior to loading. First rifle was a Badger barreled roller in 45x2.4", 80 gr Goex 2fg compressed wax paper wad over powder, I rolled a little ball of Emmert's about the size of a #1 buckshot and dropped it on top of the wax paper wad, finger seated the bullet so it was jammed against the leade when the action was closed. First shot success, second round would not go into the gun.
Back to the drawing board. Then I read somewhere what has worked for me in every attempt since. For smokeless patch to groove diamemeter, for black powder patch to bore diameter. From my grease groove bullet experience I could not believe it, but it is true.
So I got around that by running the patched and lightly lubed bullets thru my Star sizer with a .451" die in it. My current PP rifle is a modern Shiloh, no throat, zip, zilch, none, The small driving band on a Lyman 457125 must be in the case or they will not seat yet a PP with a .451" total diameter shoots fine. Not only fine but completely through a buffalo.
So now I need to order two PP moulds, one that throws a 450 gr small flat nose core at .442" and another at 370 gr a .392". Maybe after the good money fairy visits.

L Ross

[powderburnerr]

bullshop . With all due respect, this is modern ammunition shot in standard chambered rifles loaded with origional teniques and data and shot daily with with very good results to 1000 yards ...Dean

[Bullshop]

bullshop . With all due respect, this is modern ammunition shot in standard chambered rifles loaded with origional teniques and data and shot daily with with very good results to 1000 yards ...Dean

I cant deny what you are saying and neather can you deny what I have said. There is a big difference between a PP throat and an conventional SAAMI throat. I would guess that for such a long seating some adjustment has been made with your mold that you can seat so much boolit length in an SAAMI throat. I am guessing it has a long taper and much of that boolit length is riding the lands.
The boolits I sent SS are parilel sided so cant be loaded to such a length in a SAAMI throat.
So with that in mind lets all put our heads together and see if we can help solve his problem.
BIC/BS

[Marlin Junky]

Your right, it does. The entire base is covered with an exact outline of a bunch of powder grains half engraved into the base. It does not hurt accuracy though. I have shot many long range groups under MOA with smokeless patched boolits.

So the patch covering the base is obliterated before the boolit exits the muzzle?

I've got something else that's bothering me too. The H-R Whelen is what I thought I'd shoot my first PP boolit through but I may send it back to the factory for a 45-70 barrel. The Whelen has .358" grooves but it has a .361" seat with a .0015" step to the grooves. You can't see the step in the photo below but it's there, right at the rifling's commencement. You can clearly see the mark engraved by the land on the other side of the calipers... especially if you enlarge the thumbnail. Am I wasting my time attempting to shoot PPB's through it?

MJ

[45 2.1]

So the patch covering the base is obliterated before the boolit exits the muzzle? No, it is impressed thru the patch the same as the rifling is.

I've got something else that's bothering me too. The H-R Whelen is what I thought I'd shoot my first PP boolit through but I may send it back to the factory for a 45-70 barrel. The Whelen has .358" grooves but it has a .361" seat with a .0015" step to the grooves. You can't see the step in the photo below but it's there, right at the rifling's commencement. You can clearly see the mark engraved by the land on the other side of the calipers... especially if you enlarge the thumbnail. Am I wasting my time attempting to shoot PPB's through it? Since this is your rifle and not mine, I would try smoothing that step a little. A long boolit patched to about 0.3605" or a little less and seated firmly into the throat might work. A 40:1 alloy at the hardest. I've shot them in worse looking barrels, but those were old and smooth already.