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Thread: Project - PID on Lee Pro 4 20 furnace

  1. #101
    Boolit Master
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    Back again! AND IT WORKS!!!!!! Amazing how well it works when you actually set a temperature.......



    Anywho.........A couple of points.

    Another poster suggested that you could use 32guage wire for connecting the SSR as this was low current. I would suggest we might want to rethink this. I believe this relay is handling the entire current of your pot. Upwards of 1000 watts.

    I used an extension cord that had an LED in the female plug to show you that it was "live". Works great to prove that current is flowing



    I mounted the SSR (Relay) on the back of the case. The case gets just a tiny bit warm. Nothing to worry about.



    I hard wired my probe. Just didn't want to deal with the different wire issues.



    One question.....
    If I mount this piece of aluminum to hold the probe in this fashion, will it affect the temperature readings?



    And lastly, on the first run, my lead pot thermometer and the readout on the PID were some 100degrees apart...(Thermometer at 650 and PID at 750)...Is this just simply part of the set up sequence?

    Thanks for all your help with this great project...........

    More pictures in my photo album
    www.rvbprecision.com
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  2. #102
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    HATCH's Avatar
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    the temps should be the same or close to it.

    Do you have a J temp probe or K temp probe?

  3. #103
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Great job on your build, Roy! Looks very nice!

    To respond to some of your comments:
    The wire that Frozone was referring to in regards to not being gauge specific are the wires that go between the PID and the SSR (terminals 7 & 8 on the PID). This uses 24V and only 30mA of current and he is correct. I think what you are referring to is the output of the SSR that ties into the heater. This side of the SSR would need to handle the current of the heater. If you want to size it for under 1200W, go with 18ga or larger. If you want to size it for the capacity of the SSR, you would need to use 10ga.

    The mounting of the probe in the fashion you show will not affect your temperature readings. Just be sure that the mount is not going to interfere with adding material, fluxing or cleaning. If you mount the TC < 1/2" of the side of the pot, temp will show a few degrees higher than actual because of its proximity to the heating coil.

    Finally, the temp difference could be numerous things. I would tend to believe the TC is not at fault here though since the dial thermometers are not as accurate and can get knocked out of calibration.
    Suggestion to use to check which one is off: Lead melts at 621°F. So set the PID at 675°F for a test. At this temperature, your dial thermometer should read below 621°F. If lead has melted, you know that the TC is accurate. If no lead has melted, you know that the dial thermometer is accurate.
    If by some very strange chance the TC is inaccurate, you can adjust its offset in the settings.

  4. #104
    Boolit Master
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    I have a "K" probe............

    The probe will be removable, so I can have access to the pot for melting, cleaning, etc.

    It just dawned on me that the extension cord is the only wiring that will see high current, and the one I used looks to be 14ga...........Plenty.

    I do understand the use of a much smaller wire for the control. It was my misunderstanding of the posters comments on wire size....My bad!

    Thanks!
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  5. #105
    Boolit Mold
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    You guys are so professional. I'm such a hack. I used a PID, a mechanical relay, a 20A residential receptacle and a sawzall box to mount it all in. Mine was made out of necessity as the guy who sold me the smelter cut the factory merc thermocouple and a replacement gas valve was over $400. I had about $125 in the whole thing including the gas valve.

    I wish I had seen one of y'alls builds before I made mine.

    I do have three different K thermocouples for different uses (like the smoker, calibrating ovens and fridges....)

    My box is on the ground in front of the smelter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXB9q..._order&list=UL

  6. #106
    Boolit Master
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    Man, THAT is a real neat set up. I love the Sawzall box.....Yankee Ingenuity!

    How much lead does that furnace hold?
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  7. #107
    Boolit Mold
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    I've done three five gallon buckets at once with room to spare. I'm guessing about 18 gallons.

  8. #108
    Boolit Buddy
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    This sticky and the other PID sticky are great! When I built mine, I used a blown computer power supply case for my prototype. But if you want to spend a little more, this enclosure is what I used.

  9. #109
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckS1 View Post
    This sticky and the other PID sticky are great! When I built mine, I used a blown computer power supply case for my prototype. But if you want to spend a little more, this enclosure is what I used.
    Nice little box. Big enough to mount the PID, Heat sink, SSR, and any other components you wish. Similar to the size of a computer power supply that others have used.
    Last edited by Cranium; 05-31-2011 at 07:25 PM.

  10. #110
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    I don’t know if anyone came up with this configuration but it does what it is suppose to do. Thanks to all the good input here, this project was a cake walk.

  11. #111
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    LOL...looks pretty cool. The plug is almost as big as the PID. You won't have any amperage issues with that layout!

    What are you using to hold the thermocouple?

  12. #112
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    Just for now I use a coat hanger, until I get something more permanent. I suppose that heat sink should help keep the PID cooler? I have not had much of a chance to use it yet.

  13. #113
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    A coat hanger is what I'm still using as well. I'm going to keep it that way because I like being able to completely remove the TC and not have anything in the way when fluxing and cleaning out the pot.

  14. #114
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    Walter Laich's Avatar
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    Thanks to Carnium and the others for answering my questons.

    Got my PID working today and must say I'm very happy with how it went together and the fact that it does exactually what it is supposed to.

    I've created a webpage of pictures and a bit of info about it.

    http://home.comcast.net/~walterlaich/pid.htm
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  15. #115
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    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    Edit: As it turns out having the probe on the bottom causes read errors. The second installation below works great.

    Thanks to all the contributions here I am building my Controller now. I used that 1/4" thread thermocouple. It has an upper limit of 1800 F which got me thinking silver solder melts at 1200 F. So I removed the threaded bushing, drilled a hole .003" larger than the body of the probe in the bottom of the pot, pulled the lead and thermocouple through the hole and soldered it. I tried to get fancy by heating the surrounding metal that's why the solder puddle is so big. Best to heat it and the surrounding area directly from inside the pot and be quick. I used oxy/acetylene but acetylene would work and maybe Maap. The Iron stain is from the water I used to clean off flux. In an effort to keep the probe out of the way I may have put it too close to the heating element but it is also close to the spout. Time will tell. I used 56% flux coated silver solder. It's expensive but it only took 25 cents worth. There is also silver solder paste you can put right where you want, then heat.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PID1.jpg  
    Last edited by Mal Paso; 08-10-2011 at 11:09 PM.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  16. #116
    Boolit Master
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    Posted a little diddy on my web site..........

    http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/bui...e-control.html
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  17. #117
    Boolit Master
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    This is Very Cool.....Thanks!

    I plugged it in, it said 68 degrees, YES! Programed the Temp and the pot started heating. It's sitting at 750 but the Lyman Lead Thermometer says 790. I broke out the other probe and stuck it in the top of the melt and it read 10 degrees more than the Lyman Thermometer. The lower Probe is silver soldered Inside the pot. There MAY be a 50 degree difference between top and bottom of the pot and if that other poster is correct another 10 degrees to the bottom outside. More stuff to explore later.

    That lower probe is very close to the spout and the controller is awesome so for now I'll run it at 710 and be happy.

    Just cast 2 pots worth, about 600 and this works GREAT. I dropped my setting to 700 degrees and focused on hitting the sprue hole with lead. I'm casting a Keith semi wadcutter and sometimes part of the bullet nose would tear open. That must have happened when the pot temperature drifted up because it's Gone Now. Shuda done this long ago.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PID2.jpg  
    Last edited by Mal Paso; 07-31-2011 at 10:03 PM.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  18. #118
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Good to see everyone's PID projects getting completed.

    Nice pics Walter. You have the PID very well protected and a good, stout temp probe holder. Much better than my coat hanger.

    Roy, good writeup on the process and description of what a PID is (even if it came from wiki ). It's good to see it described along with the project to make the article more complete.

    Mal, I hope you have a cover for that box. Even though it take a larger footprint than the lead pot, you have a design we thought out and easily moved to be used for something else. What is the other outlet for in the pic though? Also, you can always adjust the displayed temp to account for known differences in actual temp with it being at the bottom.

  19. #119
    Boolit Master
    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    Mal, I hope you have a cover for that box. Even though it take a larger footprint than the lead pot, you have a design we thought out and easily moved to be used for something else. What is the other outlet for in the pic though? Also, you can always adjust the displayed temp to account for known differences in actual temp with it being at the bottom.
    Yes there is a cover just left it off for the photo. It's the large box from Auber. If you look above the outlets there is a hole drilled for a switch so two pots can run. The pot In Use will run on the PID ( with the Lee Thermostat All The Way Up ) The pot Coming Up To Temperature will run on It's Own Control. The switch will change the outlets from Always On to PID control alternately. After reading posts here I decided to switch probes using Auber's Plug.

    That probe although right on the bottom has full exposure to the lead on all sides but the shaft and is very close to the spout. I think the K probe is correct and 710 is the temperature at the bottom of the pot. I was never able to cast at the temperatures I was given and long suspected the spout on that Lee Pot cooled the lead. The bottom in general could be cooler. With the heating Element around the lower side of the pot the heated lead probably rises up the outside edge to the top returning to the bottom via the center, and the Coolest Lead Reaches the Spout. No Wonder Ladle Casters have such a Different View.

    The Silver Solder worked so well I'm going try installing another probe at a 45 degree angle through the bottom with the tip next to the valve rod on a second Lee 20# Pot. If I use more of the shaft inside the pot I don't have it poking down into the mold area so it could be right in the middle of the mold area. I will eventually get that long probe (along with a few more of those threaded bushing ones) and check temps at different levels but I'm afraid it may be temperature contaminated by the lead it passes through.

    That is all cool stuff to explore but bottom line I have a Great Casting System now and I'm making Better Boolits. Not having to deal with a temperature RANGE, and having more time to pay attention to mold temperature, I'm running a cooler pot and still getting excellent fill out. Oh and did I say Better Boolits.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  20. #120
    Boolit Master
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    I put a probe in the old Lee Pot. This time I built up a bead of brazing rod on the bottom of the pot to add some meat before drilling a 45 degree hole. I inserted the probe and silver soldered it. The brazing rod is solid at 1700 degrees, 56% Silver Solder is solid at 1145 degrees, so as not to fry the probe.

    The new probe read 10 degrees above the Lyman Thermometer all the way up. Ideal low casting temperature was 740 degrees versus 700 with the first probe on the bottom. May be the probe or heat loss. I will probably change the other pot to be like this one and get a couple more probes for reference.

    Although the two probes are 1 degree apart at room temperature they may be as much as 40 degrees apart at casting temp. I need to buy more probes to compare. This is a "work in progress" not a how to, so anybody with more info please jump in. I think I found an inexpensive way to install a probe in a pot, the rest is new frontier.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PID3.jpg   PID4.jpg  
    Last edited by Mal Paso; 08-07-2011 at 12:19 PM.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check