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Thread: Project - PID on Lee Pro 4 20 furnace

  1. #81
    Boolit Bub kitsap's Avatar
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    bpratl

    Frozone has a solid point. The bananna plug connectors are entirely the wrong item to use with a TC. Not only will it cause an error, but the error will vary from time to time depending on the ambient temperature. Recommend you order the TC plug receptacle setup from Auber.

    DougF

  2. #82
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    When attaching the TC to the mini connector, do you need to trim off some of the wire to run from the female side fo the connector to the PID?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsap View Post
    bpratl

    Frozone has a solid point. The bananna plug connectors are entirely the wrong item to use with a TC. Not only will it cause an error, but the error will vary from time to time depending on the ambient temperature. Recommend you order the TC plug receptacle setup from Auber.

    DougF
    I didn't even think about that.
    You are 100% correct

    At the beginning of each session you need to get the ambient air temp and add that to the displayed PID temp.
    Its a pain in the ass but its the only way with your setup
    This is the reason I went with RTDs for my 2 Pot setup

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    When attaching the TC to the mini connector, do you need to trim off some of the wire to run from the female side fo the connector to the PID?
    yes
    you don't and use regular wire you will have to do a offset based on ambient temp

  5. #85
    Boolit Buddy
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    Frozone, good point... I will give a try and let you know.
    BOB
    22LR, 9MM, 45 ACP, 45 LC, 45-70, 6MM BR, 30BR, 222, 204, 22-250, 7-30 WATERS, 12GA, 36 & 44 BP

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy
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    I did use shielded cable on the inside for the TC wiring and used bananas on the outside because I had a Fluke TC Probe that already had a banana connector on it. Would a BNC connecter be a better choice as I have a few lying around?
    BOB
    22LR, 9MM, 45 ACP, 45 LC, 45-70, 6MM BR, 30BR, 222, 204, 22-250, 7-30 WATERS, 12GA, 36 & 44 BP

  7. #87
    Boolit Master
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    OK..........Got all my parts and ready to build!

    A couple questions:

    #1. If I mount the relay to the finned aluminum case I bought for the PID, would this be enough heat sink?

    #2 If not, can the heat sink I purchased, along with the mounted relay be attached to the aluminum finned box?

    #3 If "yes" to #1, can the relay be installed inside the box to the top fined cover (to act as a heat sink) with vent holes drilled into the box?

    It just seems to me that the heatsink I bought is way larger than might be needed. Yes?
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  8. #88
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    bpratl, you need to use the EXACT same wire as what is on the TC probe.

    Rbertalotto

    Yes to #1

    A Lee Pro 4-20 furnace only draws about 7 amps (6.83 i think).

    SSRs are designed that so in order to get MAX amp rating you must use a heatsink.
    If you are using less then 1/2 the rated amps and you have the SSR mounted on a metal surface you should be just fine.
    Most people on here use 25 amp SSRs and only really need 10 amp because they are only drawing 7 amps.

  9. #89
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Roy,

    Did you buy the small aluminum case from Auberins? If so, do you plan on mounting it directly on the housing of your pot?

    My opinion:
    I mounted my case directly to the housing of the pot. The case does get warm from the casing but not overly so. My SSR is also mounted to the housing but I put the heat sink between the casing and SSR to add a bit of a heat buffer to the SSR.

    The 25a SSR is rated to operate at up to 158°F and does not generate that much heat with the 6a or so going through it. A heat sink would be optional it attached to something at ambient temperature. Mounting it inside the box (must be a bigger box) would also work well. Vent holes would only be necessary if you felt the case starting to get hot (not warm) to the touch. If this happened, a few very small holes at the bottom and top would encourage air flow through the case.

  10. #90
    Boolit Master
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    The relay and the PID will not both fit into the aluminum case. So I'm mounting the relay to the external rear of the case. The entire case will act as a heatsink.

    I'm going to hardwire my probe to do away with any issues of wire type between the quick disconnects I purchased from Auber.

    Out of the box will be two AC whips......one male and one female........

    The PID will plug into the wall and the pot will plug into the PID............

    Simple-Small-Reliable.............Nice!

    Picture coming soon.............
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpratl View Post
    I did use shielded cable on the inside for the TC wiring and used bananas on the outside because I had a Fluke TC Probe that already had a banana connector on it. Would a BNC connecter be a better choice as I have a few lying around?
    That is a difficult question to answer for every case.

    Here's why:

    A TC is just 2 different metals join together at a 'normalized' junction.

    'normalized' being a fancy way of saying carefully controlled manufacturing.

    This junction produces a voltage from Dielectric effects. The same process that you put zinc on a boat hull to prevent corrosion for. Or plumbers have to deal with switching between copper and iron pipe.

    Any 2 different metals at a junction will make a TC. A 'K' type TC is just a specific 2 metals, there are others type that use other metals.

    There lies the problem. A K type produces a known voltage at a given temp and the change with temp is known, other metals make other voltages at the same temp and change at a different rate with temp change.

    Now the voltages produced are polar and algebraic. A TC that makes +1 volt one way, makes -1 the other. Or if you take to identical TC types and connect the same polarity wires together then read the voltage at the ends, you get 0 volts, -1 + +1 = 0. The voltages cancel.

    So it's not absolutely necessary to use the K type connector in a project.
    It is a good idea however.

    As long as Both sides of the circuit contain the exact same metals in the same combination everything is fine.

    copper > steel > zinc > chrome > K+ (TC junction) K- > chrome > zinc > steel > copper is fine as long as the same junction combinations are at the same temperature.

    But: copper > steel > zinc > chrome > K+ (TC junction) K- > copper > steel > zinc > chrome is an error.

    Or this works too: K+ > steel > K+ > (TC junction) > K-. You get a voltage at the K to steel junction but that voltage cancels out at the opposite (steel > K) junction voltage, leaving only the TC junction voltage. Provided the 2 steel junctions are at the same temp ( both sides of a screw are a good example)

    So as long as the connector you use is symmetrical in composition, it'll work fine.
    If not than you'll have problems.

    HTH and clears up some of the confusion.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master
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    Simple question...........

    What size wire should I be using to wire the PID to the relay?
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbertalotto View Post
    Simple question...........

    What size wire should I be using to wire the PID to the relay?
    Amperage is minimal almost anything will work, even 32g.
    I think I used 24g as I had it around. Use what ever easily fits in the screw connectors.

  14. #94
    Boolit Master
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    I'm building my PID tonight. All the wiring diagrams I've found make reference to SSR connections:

    L1, T1, A2- , A1+

    My SSR says :

    1 25A OUTPUT 50/60hz 2

    4 - Control 3-32 Volts + 3





    Can someone translate this for me........

    Here is the wiring diagram I'm using

    http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...2&d=1303243707
    Last edited by rbertalotto; 05-26-2011 at 08:53 PM.
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbertalotto View Post
    I'm building my PID tonight. All the wiring diagrams I've found make reference to SSR connections:

    L1, T1, A2- , A1+

    My SSR says :

    1 25A OUTPUT 50/60hz 2

    4 - Control 3-32 Volts + 3


    Can someone translate this for me........
    1= L1, 2 = T1 (it doesn't matter which is which)

    4 = A2, 3 = A1 The +/- control outputs from the PID.
    PID output control + to 3 PID output control - to 4.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master
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    Thank you!thank you!thank you!
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  17. #97
    Boolit Master
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    OK, got it all wired up.......you need to be careful. There are wiring diagrams on this board that are 100% incorrect!

    For the PID I'm using, (SYL-2352) this drawing is WRONG
    http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...2&d=1303243707

    This drawing is correct:





    So, it's all hooked up. everything turns on. I've input all the parameters. And I used a line cord that has an LED built in so I can see when the pot is getting 120V.

    But it don't work. I have the following settings:
    ALM1 = 825
    ALM2 = 650
    Hy1 = 15
    Hy2 = 15
    Hy = .5
    At = 0

    But the pot goes below 525 degrees and the relay does not activate.......

    What am I doing wrong?

    Do I need to deal with more settings?
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  18. #98
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    hmmm.....besides the temperature setting, I didn't have to adjust anything besides enabling manual mode. I was happy with the learning and temperature control from first power up.

    You didn't mention what temperature you had it set to. Is this the 525°F? mentioned?

    Just some suggestions and thoughts here:

    Your At=0 is incorrect. The setting you have it at is going to cause it to switch a lot less frequently. Try setting At=2 once the pot is at the operating temperature. Although the current setting will not prevent the SSR from shutting.

    Do you see the OUT indicator on the PID cycling? And since you have the alarms set up, do you see the AL2 light come on? Note, it will only come on if your set temperature is above the ALM2 temp and your pot drifts down to the ALM2 setting.

    Also try activating manual mode by setting A/M=0 or 1. This will allow you to cycle the SSR with the A/M key to test the functionality. Although realize that the manual mode does not act like a manual 'on/off' switch. It disables the PID from cycling the SSR from the state it is in when you put it in manual mode. I use it when I need to pull the TC from the pot to flux and don't want it to get in the way. When the heater is off, I go into manual mode, pull the TC and the heater won't enable until I take it out of manual.

    Do you have alarms set up on your design? Hy1 & Hy2 are only used for activating the high and low alarms. If you don't have a light, buzzer, or something else set up on these, it won't do anything (contacts 1, 13 & 14 on the PID).

    You may want to also check all values in the setup against the defaults (shown in the manual) to start everything over in case some other setting has been inadvertently changed.

    I also did all my testing of functionality at room temperature. I used my body temperature to raise the TC temp and had the setting at 92°F so could easily test cycling of the SSR.

  19. #99
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks, I'll give all this a try........I'm sure it's just something in the settings that is throwing me off.
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
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    You didn't mention what temperature you had it set to. Is this the 525°F? mentioned?
    Now this could be the issue...........I didn't "set" a temperature at all.........I need to go re-read the instructions!..........
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check