Project - PID on Lee Pro 4 20 furnace

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

So I'm waffling here... I can't decide if I should just go cheap and buy the parts individually, or spend a bit more on a pre-built PID.

I'm considering the pre-built kit from here: http://jconninv.com/pnp.shtml but would like to hear from guys that have ordered from this site before... good experience or not? It's quite a bit more cash to buy that PnP system vs. piecing one together, but the time savings would be substantial.

After reading through most of this thread as well as the other PID threads here, my head is spinning.

My finger was hovering over the "Buy" button on the jconninv PnP PID, but $170 is a lot more than piecing one together for 60 bucks or so.

What do you guys think? Piece one together, or just buy the PnP?

I built my own, the first PID controller I ordered was defective. I had ordered all the parts and then the project sat for about 18 months, til I finally got to building it. So I wasn't able to return or exchange the PID that I ordered from Hong Kong...lesson learned, I order my second PID (JDL-612) from a USA source (where I could return it, if I had trouble).
ANYWAY, if you have the ability to understand a simple schematic and can connect wires and you are good at scrounging misc parts for free, I'd recommend building your own, if you don't make my mistake, you could probably build one for less than $50. (I've heard the certain Tower PC power supply cases are the perfect size)

Plug and Play:
I don't know if Jconn is good to deal with or not. From the photo, it looks like a good unit???
I'd suggest OBIII, he is a vendor here and delivers a good product.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...efits-of-a-PID

[10x]

I have built several for under $30 , all work extremely well.
Make sure you buy terminal rated for 125 VAC rather than automotive.
And invest in a good crimper for the terminals.

[Mike W1]

Just my 2¢ on this. I've built 3 without any problems at all but had a look at the wiring instructions for that JDConn P&P unit. I'm sure his units will work well but frankly those instructions didn't do a thing for me. And I do have some electrical background. And contrary to many on here I'm not too wild about Mypin controllers either. I sent mine back and used a less expensive Rex whose only drawback is it only reads in Celsius. Not too hard to make a conversion chart for that.

Biggest items other than the PID, SSR, heat sink and TC are the other wires needed, some terminal lugs, outlet and power plug and switch. You can probably scrounge a box for it. I just built my second 2. Not as pretty but think the first one I paid about $30 for. About $25 on fleabay will get you the PID, SSR, sink and a TC but you do have to know what to look for. Just recently I posted some links for them on another site and could retrieve them if you like.

And unless you're definitely not going to want to use the controller on any other gear such as lube heater or a hot plate I'd spend a few dollars more and put one of the little sockets made for use on TC's so you can easily plug a different unit into the controller. Money well spent IMHO.

Have talked a few guys through building one that knew nothing of electricity and would be glad to help you if needed. Just PM me if you're so inclined.

Don't know what happened but something corrupted those links I had on here. The ones I posted over on artfulbullet.com are good though.

[Phlier]

Man, you guys are the best. Thanks so much for the help/advice.

I was considering this: https://www.amazon.com/SSR-25DA-Auto...id+project+box it's an almost complete kit for $31. Only thing missing is the terminal block and a heat sink for the SSR. Well, that and a box to put it in. I have a very old computer case that might work. I'ts a bit large, but that way I can put in a bunch of fans if needed to keep it cool in the desert south west during the summer. I could mount the PID controller in one of the computer case's front plates, then the rest of the stuff in the body of it.

I'm actually doing pretty well on finding most of the parts I need, but I have yet to find a decent terminal block. Any chance someone could link to a good one?

@Mike W1, the first link for ebay pulls up a bunch of weird stuff... Men's cologne, T-Connectors, ignition coils, in-line fuel filters. 2nd and 3rd links pull up some weird stuff, too. Must not be any matching sales for those searches currently on Ebay. Darn it.

@10x, any chance you could link to the parts you used, especially the terminal block?

I will be buying the TC plug connectors. I'll also be adding a wall socket type plug so that the unit is completely portable.

[10x]

Man, you guys are the best. Thanks so much for the help/advice.

I was considering this: https://www.amazon.com/SSR-25DA-Auto...id+project+box it's an almost complete kit for $31. Only thing missing is the terminal block and a heat sink for the SSR. Well, that and a box to put it in. I have a very old computer case that might work. I'ts a bit large, but that way I can put in a bunch of fans if needed to keep it cool in the desert south west during the summer. I could mount the PID controller in one of the computer case's front plates, then the rest of the stuff in the body of it.

I'm actually doing pretty well on finding most of the parts I need, but I have yet to find a decent terminal block. Any chance someone could link to a good one?

@Mike W1, the first link for ebay pulls up a bunch of weird stuff... Men's cologne, T-Connectors, ignition coils, in-line fuel filters. 2nd and 3rd links pull up some weird stuff, too. Must not be any matching sales for those searches currently on Ebay. Darn it.

@10x, any chance you could link to the parts you used, especially the terminal block?

I will be buying the TC plug connectors. I'll also be adding a wall socket type plug so that the unit is completely portable.

I didn't use a terminal block, I purchased small U shaped crimp on 120 VAC terminals. I used a REX C100 PID controler - make sure it is the one for the external relay. I buy the ones with internal relay and jumper the relay so it will run a SSR.
Don't over think.

Two 110 VAC lines come in - the neutral (white) gets split with a U Shaped terminal connecotr - one wire to power the PID. The other wire goes to the neutral side of the outlet for the pot.
The black wire gets split at a terminal crimp connector that attaches a short black wire to power the PID> the other terminal connector goes to the 120 VAC side of the PID.
The other side of the 120VAC goes to the live side of the plug.
There are 2 short wires with U shaped terminal connectors that go from the Relay control terminals on the PID to the Switching side of the SSR. Polarity is important. the SSR will not work if the terminals are reversed.
The thermocouple is wired to two terminals on the PID body - if the PID reads negative, you have them reversed.

The REX C100 comes in 24 V, 120VAC and 240 VAC. Some will handle All three voltages, some are dedicated to a specific voltage.
Make sure you get PID that is SSR rated.

My experience with MYPIN Pids is not positive - they are a pain. I have found that setting them to a simple on/off switch does the same job as the PID function. - and there is no learning time.
The temperature reaches the desired level, the current gets turned off, alloy temp drops, the current gets turned on.

I purchased most of my parts from Aliexpress, the slow boat from China. Great prices, never been burned, but it can take 60 days for it to arrive with free shipping.
Spend $10 on shipping and it will arrive in a week or so

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Dual...8-268439ba4538

And the correct thermocouple

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1M-K...8-49de5458c6d0

[10x]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free...f662&tpp=1

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100P...2-1ff5e31546b0

[Phlier]

10x, thank you so much!

[Mike W1]

Don't know what happened to those links!!!! I edited that post.This Rex is one that'd work. Other parts easily looked up on fleabay. A lot of Rex units are relay out put or 220v.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/REX-C100FK02...wAAOSwE6VXJwe0

I've never had to wait more than a couple weeks on the free ebay shipping and that's been quite a few items now. But I plan on looking over the site mentioned above.

[Phlier]

Wow... much appreciated, gents.

[Phlier]

My wife is gonna take all the nice, pretty boolits I cast yesterday and shoot me with them.

Just placed my Auberins order. I got a few extra goodies, as well as their large enclosure. Total tab was $170. Here I thought I was saving money by buying the Lee pot! Nah... I know I can use it for other pots, too. It won't ever be used to control my old Saeco, though. That old pot holds temp rock steady.

I'm going to use 16AWG wire for the load carrying lines. Are you guys using an inline fuse, and if so, what amperage (US 120V)?

I haven't even built my first one yet, and I'm already thinking of building a second one to control a hot plate to pre-heat my mold to 420F. Idea is a hot plate with a flat piece of metal on top. TC reads the metal temp and maintains it at 420F.

Thanks again for all the help!

[Mike W1]

I used #14 for mine. I wouldn't bother with the inline fuse either. Another thing I wouldn't bother with again are extra indicators for the alarms. Fact is I didn't on my second two units as I never bothered to set them in the first place. What I am glad I did is put indicators in the circuits so that it's obvious I shut the unit off when I left the shop and also one that shows when the power is flowing to the pot. That is there on the PID unit itself but not so well lit.

When you get to the hotplate thing, I had a piece of 1/4" aluminum I used that's cut to shape and bolted a small piece onto it which I tapped for the TC. My molds like to be around 300-310° F and setting my Auber at 380° gets it there. After experimenting with several rigs I've settled on a couple ingots bolted together with a wooden handle. Set them on top of the mold to keep a flat contact.

If you're getting a SYL-2352 I made some cheat sheets to use while getting familiar with it. Could email you copies if you'd like. PM if you want. I juggle my Auber between lube heater and hot plate as I do prefer it and the 2 Rexs manage my pots very well. Be a cheap way to add another unit. I do love toys!!!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I had a small/narrow 15 circuit breaker that was salvaged from a industrial control panel from work, that I put in my PID. I used 14 ga wire for the load carrying wires as well.

[Phlier]

Well, shoot. I think I ordered the wrong PID. That's what I get for having so dang many web browser tabs open. I ordered the SYL-2362 (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=106) intead of the SYL-2352 (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...&products_id=3 )

The folks at Auberin must work fast; they've already shipped my order. So no chance of changing it. Anyone know if the SYL-2362 will work?

Edit: It looks like the only significant difference is that the SYL-2362 (the one I ordered) can be configured for "either relay contact or SSR output". There's also a few other functional differences, but it looks like it will still function as a PID with SSR output. Hopefully, the default setting will be SSR.

[Mike W1]

Another guy awhile back got the 2362 and I'm pretty sure he got it working just fine. I remember downloading the manual for it but don't remember any particulars on it. One of the "bennies" of having an Auber unit is their really great support and their manual is in English English instead of Asian English. Looks like it's default to SSR at a quick glance.

[Phlier]

I used #14 for mine. I wouldn't bother with the inline fuse either. Another thing I wouldn't bother with again are extra indicators for the alarms. Fact is I didn't on my second two units as I never bothered to set them in the first place. What I am glad I did is put indicators in the circuits so that it's obvious I shut the unit off when I left the shop and also one that shows when the power is flowing to the pot. That is there on the PID unit itself but not so well lit.

When you get to the hotplate thing, I had a piece of 1/4" aluminum I used that's cut to shape and bolted a small piece onto it which I tapped for the TC. My molds like to be around 300-310° F and setting my Auber at 380° gets it there. After experimenting with several rigs I've settled on a couple ingots bolted together with a wooden handle. Set them on top of the mold to keep a flat contact.

If you're getting a SYL-2352 I made some cheat sheets to use while getting familiar with it. Could email you copies if you'd like. PM if you want. I juggle my Auber between lube heater and hot plate as I do prefer it and the 2 Rexs manage my pots very well. Be a cheap way to add another unit. I do love toys!!!

Excellent stuff, Mike, I can't tell you how much it's appreciated.

I'll plan on 14AWG for the load wiring, then, and skip the fuse. The indicator that shows when a load is being drawn from the SSR output is a fantastic idea. I just don't have a clue as to how to do it! Just wire an amp meter inline? Hmmm.. if the SSR is cycling the power really fast, an old school ammeter might not like it. Man, years and years ago (back when I had hair), I was pretty good with electrical stuff. Nowadays, just call me "Sparky".

I'd love a copy of the cheat sheets... just not sure that they'd work with my 2362 unit.

I have an RCBS lead pot thermometer that came with a neat little clippy thing to hold it stable in the pot. I'm thinking I'll just use it to hold the TC in place. Speaking of which, how far above the bottom of the pot are you guys placing the tip of the TC? Does the TC need to be enclosed in a tube or can it just go straight in the melt as is?

I love my toys, too! (But my wife, OTOH, doesn't.) I must admit, I'm thinking of ordering the 2352 unit to go along with the 2362 as a starting place for the hot plate plan. Thanks for the hints on that, too, btw.

I did order a wiring block to make it easier to add stuff as the project develops.

I read many, many internet forums covering a wide variety of subjects, and I just gotta say that the quality of forum members here on castboolits is the best I've seen. OK, so awkward moment over with... get back to casting boolits!

[Mike W1]

I used neon lamps to indicate main power on and power to the pot. My toggle switch didn't have the light option and the lamps are 120v available from Radio Shack for one option anyhow. One side goes to the power out (+ I think) of the SSR and the other side to neutral/ground. Basically the same thing you'd do for the main power switch. I'll try and stick a attachment on here if I can figure out how. PM me your email and I'll send a couple files, might help.

Most of the recommendations I've seen say to place the TC about 1/2" from side and bottom of pot. TC's go straight into the melt.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

I have an RCBS lead pot thermometer that came with a neat little clippy thing to hold it stable in the pot. I'm thinking I'll just use it to hold the TC in place. Speaking of which, how far above the bottom of the pot are you guys placing the tip of the TC? Does the TC need to be enclosed in a tube or can it just go straight in the melt as is?

I use a little clippy thing from a cooking therometer, it's like the one on a Lyman lead thermometer. And yes, the TC is straight into the melt. I have mine set as close to the pour spout as possible, as that's the alloy I want to know the temperature of. I have the Tip of the TC within 1/4" of the bottom.
Good Luck.

[Phlier]

Thanks to all the extremely knowledgeable/helpful gents on this forum, my Auberins PID build is going very well. I used their large project box, which is *plenty* large. I got the 40A SSR and heatsink, and even so, there's still enough room in the box to park a VW Bug. The large project box is the perfect size for putting two PID's in one box, if you wanted to have one PID to control your pot, and another to control a hot plate for warming your mold or even a second pot. You would need to use 25A SSR's/heatsinks to get two PID's to fit well.

I cut out the various openings last night with a Dremel using a diamond cutting wheel. It worked well. The large project box is steel, not aluminum, so plan your cutting accordingly.

All the parts are now mounted in the box. The wiring gets done today.

The plan:

The first PID will be used to control alloy temp. A 2nd PID will be added soon. An electric hot plate will be plugged into it. A mold temp sensor from NOE will be attached to the mold and connected to the 2nd PID. Prior to casting, the mold will be pre-heated on the hot plate to the desired temp. During casting, the mold temp can be monitored by the 2nd PID so that I can speed up/slow down casting cadence as needed to keep the mold temp in the sweet spot. I'm hoping that this setup will allow me to throw good boolits from the very first cast, and keep them very consistent throughout the session.

Hope I can find a second circuit in my garage. My old Saeco pot has a 1,000 watt coil, and my hot plate is 825. Assuming 110 volts, that's 16.6 amps. Alternative is to use the Lee pot (700 watts) and the hot plate.

Link to the large box: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=143

For anyone looking to do a PID right now, Auberins just started a sale on one of their better boxes. It's actually the one I wanted, but was too cheap to spend a few extra bucks on it. Linky:http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=502

Edit: Just to avoid confusing anyone... The 25A SSR is plenty for controlling a lead pot. I went with the 40A because I'll be casting in a very hot (110F+) garage in the summer, and wanted a beefier SSR and heatsink to help with the heat. I'll probably be adding a cooling fan to it as well... most likely this one: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=245

[Phlier]

Got my box finished up the other day. Finally had a chance to cast with it last night. I had a brand new Lee 4-20 pot waiting in it's box for the PID to get done.

I put 10 lbs of RotoMetals Lyman #2 in the Lee, turned on the PID, and put it in manual mode with a 100% duty cycle (SSR closed 100% of the time) for max heating. At 25 degrees before my target temp of 750, I put the PID in auto. It took about 25 minutes or so to stop over/under shooting the set temp, but after that it narrowed the range down to 5 degrees, then by the end of the first hour it was maintaining +- 2 degrees. This was with the thermocouple touching the bottom of the pot, right where the sidewall hits the bottom. Not an ideal placement; I still need to get a proper thermocouple holder setup. Ended the session with about 800 124 gr .358 boolits.

Putting the PID in manual for melting, then auto for temperature maintenance worked really well.

[dragon813gt]

The PID isn't going to cycle the SSR until the set temp is almost reached. So manual mode didn't speed anything up.