10.4x42R (.41 Swiss) loads

[quiver]

I have recently had a 41 Swiss rifle converted to center fire operation as a birthday gift for my dad. Naturaly I had to test it out to make sure that it worked and develop loads of course. Boolit used was the Lee 310 gr. .429.

The powders used were IMR 4198, IMR 3031, WC-846 (use BL-C2 data), and Surplus Reloader 15 from Hi-Tech Ammo. They call it long range match.

For the IMR 4198 I used 25.0 gr. Velocity (from memory) was around 1250 fps. Consistent ignition with CCI large rifle primers and Winchester large pistol primers.
A few clinkers

The IMR 3031 load was 31.2 gr. with an average velocity (from notes) of 1243 fps. Consistent ignition from CCI large rifle primers. I didn't make a pistol primer lot. Very Few clinkers.

The velocities from the WC-846 loads at 35.1 gr. Indicated that it was about 10% hotter than usual with a velocity of 1590 fps. I was shooting for a velocity of around 1300 fps. Ignition was possibly inconsistent with one squib using CCI primers. Again did not use any pistol primers. Very few clinkers.

The Reloader 15 at 33.4 gr. provided highly inconsistent velocities with the lowest at 1008 fps and the highest at 1409 fps. This indicates very inconsistent ignition with the one squib in this lot with the CCI rifle primers. Once again no pistol primers were tested with this load. Noticeable amount of clinkers probably from bad ignition.

Could using pistol primers in this cartridge be a better idea? The squibs had the boolit completely unseated and had to be tapped out with a cleaning rod. Any ideas for more consistent ignition would be appreciated.

[Safeshot]

I have not had good results with Pistol Primers in this caliber. So far - have had good results with Unique (No fillers) and CCI and Win Large Rifle (reg) Primers. With the rifle powders such as IMR 4198, 4895, & 3031 I have had good results with CCI and Win Large Rifle Mag Primers with lighter powder charges than yours (& NO fillers).

Unique seems to work well with bullets from 240 gr. PB through 310 gr. (GC) & up to 400 gr. PB.

Now that I have been informed what "clinkers" are, (thanks, quiver) I have not noticed any problems with them with the above mentioned loads. The Unique loads were the "Cleanest" burning. Safeshot

[GUSTAVOAR]

Hello:
My load with the LEE 310 Gr (.429") is 28 Gr of Reloder 7 + filler + Federal LR, the velocity in my carbine is about 1300 FPS and the groups in 1 to 1,5" at 50 Meters. I use the brass at 42 mm. My carbine is the 1869/71 converted model.

SALUDOS

[quiver]

Clinkers are partially or completely unburnt powder debris that may be found in the case and/or barrel after firing. A good powder should mostly complete buring by the time the boolit leaves the barrel.

[quiver]

Tested some refinements on the Reloader 15 and WC-846 loads. I reduced the WC-846 load by 10% to 31.5gr. Still using CCI large rifle primers. I had 3 squibs. It is clear that this powder and primer combination does not work. I left the batch that I did with Winchester large pistol primers at home so I didn't get to test that load.

The Reloader 15 batch was the same charge weight as used previously but I used Winchester large pistol primers. All cartridges fired. Average velocity of 1076 fps. This is pretty low and the pressures did not fire form the cases. Will need to work up carefully.

[toot]

where did you obtain brass for your gun? Toot.

[Safeshot]

Toot,
Brass can be formed in a .41 Swiss full length sizing die. You can use a "2 Die" Lee Die die set for the .41 Swiss from Graf & Son (most "cost effective" die set for the .41 Swiss). You can use 8mm French Lebel (Privi Partisan) Brass also from Graf & Son. First expand the neck with a tapered punch, then expand the neck with a .357 RCBS expander plug, then expand with a .44 Special/Mag expander plug. (Lube the tapered punch, and each expander plug and inside the case neck with case sizing lube between each expanding step). Rough trim (slightly longer than you want the finished case) then size in the .41 Swiss sizing die. Trim to final length, bell the case mouth with a Lee Universal Neck Expanding Die (which is not a neck expanding die at all, but is a good neck or case mouth "belling" die), and load a "fire forming" load with a 240 gr. or heavier lead boolit. (A light powder charge of unique works well for a fire forming load.) The seating die may need to be modified by using a bullet seating plug from a Lee .43 Spanish seating die if a large flat nose bullet is desired (such as a Lee 310 Gr. boolit). You also may want to modify the seating die to allow the boolit to be seated "out further", into the rifling origin, if that is desired - than the original seating die will allow. Hope that this helps. Good luck in your efforts.

[quiver]

toot,

Sorry about being away from the board. Safeshot is right on about where I got the brass for this rifle. A point of clarification if you are using my load information. I am seating the boolit to produce a cartridge over all length of 2.20 inches. This is important from a pressure standpoint. The data if Quick Load is accurate should be around 13,000 psi producing velocity in the vicinity of 1300 fps. These could be considered starting loads. You probably shouldn't push velocity too much above 1500 - 1600 fps.

A question I have though is my bore slugged out to 0.436. (Yes I knew this before developing loads.) And have recently acquired the 43 Spanish mold from Lyman. I then proceeded to produce a dummy round to check for fit.(Case length 1.5 inch) Fit was too tight to consider for this rifle right now. Should I try turning the case to produce a better fit or should I take advantage of the tapered chamber of this rifle and just simply trim to fit with this boolit?

[twotoescharlie]

much easier to anneal the necks and fireform,been doing this for years,smokem joe will tell you the same thing.

TTC

[Nobade]

See my write up over in black powder cartridges. Twotoescharlie is right on, and once the cases are formed no dies are needed. I also can't imagine how this rifle could perform better with smokeless powder than it does with black. I am amazed at how good it shoots with Swiss powder!

[toot]

safeshot & quiver, thanks for getting back to me with great info. sorry i didn't respond sooner.

[toot]

clinkers, thanks for letting me know what that were.

[huntj3]

toot,

Sorry about being away from the board. Safeshot is right on about where I got the brass for this rifle. A point of clarification if you are using my load information. I am seating the boolit to produce a cartridge over all length of 2.20 inches. This is important from a pressure standpoint. The data if Quick Load is accurate should be around 13,000 psi producing velocity in the vicinity of 1300 fps. These could be considered starting loads. You probably shouldn't push velocity too much above 1500 - 1600 fps.

A question I have though is my bore slugged out to 0.436. (Yes I knew this before developing loads.) And have recently acquired the 43 Spanish mold from Lyman. I then proceeded to produce a dummy round to check for fit.(Case length 1.5 inch) Fit was too tight to consider for this rifle right now. Should I try turning the case to produce a better fit or should I take advantage of the tapered chamber of this rifle and just simply trim to fit with this boolit?

Resurrection post for future knowledge seekers.

My 69/71 has a groove dia of .436 as well. Chamber cast showed a conical taper that an oversized boolit would not work for me in a smokeless 42mm case and so I went with 38mm (being that it’s the original cartridge for a 69/71). I use the Lyman 439186 mould sized to .439 with my 8mm Lebel brass trimmed to approx 39mm which fire-forms down to 38mm.

I neck size and expand with a carbide Lee 44 mag set, seat to 2.2” with Lee Swiss die backed out, then light crimp back with the 44 mag sizer. I suspect most owners of later model vetterlis may use a 41 mag to neck size as I do for my Italian vetterli.

Yes, I could have sized the boolit down to groove diameter and went with a longer case length or even used 44 mag boolits with black powder. For my applications I chose to fill the throat with an oversized boolit and smokeless.

[fourclicks]

Recently got my 41' swiss back out of the safe. I had a heeled bullet mold from the CBE in Australia sized .436 loaded up with 18grs. of 2400 it shot better than my 12 grs. Unique another load showing promise 18 grs of 4759 have to careful about the OAL some caused feeding problems. Hope this is of some help