650 with casefeeder, 100rds. 5mins.
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650 with casefeeder, 100rds. 5mins.
This is a great thread!
It's nice to see an open an honest review by people that have used both machines instead of the typical red vs. blue stuff. I've been seriously looking into the 550, LNL, or 650, but have been unable to make up my mind. I have many friends that run the 550b and most of them are true blue, except one. He had a lot of trouble with the stick powders on the Dillon powder system and after multiple calls with Dillon he eventually ended up so frustrated he sold all his Dillon equipment. I really think he's the exception to most people I've talked to about this particular press though.
I'm coming from the single stage world and lately have been loading a lot more pistol than rifle plus getting the opportunity to shoot a lot more. I can keep up right now on my co-ax, but I really can't ever get ahead. I have loaded a little bit with the 550 (one of my friends) and think it feels solid and well built. Like mentioned above, I visually inspected the powder level on each round as I put a bullet on top of it, but I really wish it had a 5th station for a powder check. I probably would have already pulled the trigger on a 550 if it had this. The 650 has this, plus more, but more $$$.
I wish I knew someone local that had a LNL so I could go give it a try. I'm still carrying around Cabelas gift cards from Christmas, so it would be little out of pocket expense.
One question that I have for those that have loaded on both machines. In your opinion, which press produces the more consistent/accurate rifle ammo? (less run-out, etc) I'm not dreaming about match quality ammo on any of these machines, (I'll use the co-ax for that) but it is one factor in my decision making process.
A gentleman screen named "Shoney" on www.thehighroad.org owns a Dillon 550 and a LNL. He did extensive tests on bullet run-out on RIFLE ammo. What he found was the LNL was quite a bit better in regards to bullet run-out. In other words, bullets are seated "straighter" on the LNL than on the 550. I believe he also did tests on the consistency of Dillon and LNL powder measures. Again, the Hornady powder measure was more consistent. HOWEVER, that depends on the type of powder. With ball powder, the difference between Dillon and LNL was negligible. With "stick type" powder, IMR 4831, IMR 4350, etc,. the LNL was significantly more consistent.
Be mindful, that I read these about 4 years ago when I was evaluating which press to buy. His test results were a prime reason I purchased the LNL. I was ready to buy 650 as I had used one before and everybody seemed to own a Blue press. That was before I found out about the LNL. Do a search on TheHighRoad with "Shoney" and "LNL". There is a ton of stuff on both Dillon and LNL comparisons.
Does that mean one is better? Absolutely not!!! BOTH ARE OUTSTANDING PRESSES AND EACH HAS IT'S STRONG AND WEAK POINTS. They both operate differently, you have to find what suits you best. And, don't let anybody tell you that their press worked flawlessly out of the box. They don't, irregardless of the color. If someone tells you that Blue presses allow you to load while standing on water while conversing angles, go to www.brianenos.com and look at the Dillon forum, it's full of guys that are having issues with their Blue presses.
Last edited by Waldog; 05-05-2011 at 12:58 AM.
Just to follow up on my orginal Post. I spoke with Hornady, So far I have talked to the same guy twice and he has been very nice as opposed to the last time I called with the smart a$$ people. They are sending me a new primer slide as the one I have on it broke yesterday around the return spring area. He told me he thinks my primer guide rod is out of spec. so he was gonna send one of these as well. We'll see how this works out then.
As I said I really wanna like this press. I will agree it dosn't have the leverage the Dillon has. I think if I add the case feeder and bullet feeder the hornady would be hard to beat. I've decided though to use the K.I.S.S. system and just be happy and load ammo. Nothing wrong with up grade'n in the future but running 3 progressive press's sure puts a bigger hurting on my wallet!
The part the LnL needs to load really fast and reliably but doesn't have.
Too keep the small 9mm cases from falling off the slider.
Something to keep the cases from missing the chute.
If you look around you will see that the LnL has issues with smaller cases falling off the sub plate, you will see it has more issues with upside down cases. Again, the slower you load the less likely you are going to notice or have these issues. But I buy a case feed progressive machine to load quickly. Not at the same pace I can load at on my 550 with no casefeeder (100 rds in 8mins).
If you look you will see there is a small % that never get their machine to seat some brands of primers reliably. A much larger group that has no issues. LnL has much worse QC and I believe that you have a small % that get machines with tolerances that stack up in the wrong direction causing them to have issues with priming using harder primers. If you take a look at the LnL primer punch it is 1/4 the length of the Dillon 650 unit. If the machine you own runs out of primer stroke before your primers are fully seated your going to have issues. If you look at the amount of height the LnL extends it's primers above the shell plate and compare that to the 650 you will see it is much lower then the 650 unit. 550 has a adjustable primer punch so I am ignoring it in this conversation. LnL digs a hole in the frame where the primer punch hits the frame. The harder you push to seat the primer the more the hollow ram of the LnL flexes and the primer punch then tips. One side seats low the other side is higher. 650 has a removable piece the primer punch activates on and it does not deform that piece quickly. I can go on but don't have time. If you take a 650 and a LnL and compare the quality of engineering of the two machines it obvious the 650 is much better designed. LnL has nicer features. So if the reviewer is focusing on features the LnL is likely to come out ahead. But if you take actual pictures of those individual parts the 650's are designed better.
The people with good experiences always say "LnL is fine, don't know why others complain". But if your machines QC stakes up in the wrong direction your not going to be a happy camper. If your happy with loading slower to fix cases that don't go in the shellplate all the way, cases that fell off the subplate, that type of thing you will not be as unhappy. If your loading 100rds in 6 mins and a case doesn't go in the shell plate you will start crunching them under the decapping die and breaking pins. That is why the 650 guides the case with a retainer like I posted in the first picture.
I like the LnL powder measure (Dillon works fine as well), I like the retainer springs on the LnL (but the Dillon setup is more reliable because the case does not have to ride over the spring and cutout on the way to the shell plate). I like the size of the LnL shellplate/toolhead. I actually liked the LnL bushings at first but grew tired of them after using them for months. I actually like the LnL primer slider. I never had issues with it.
Dillon 650 is a Production machine. Caliber changes are harder as a result. Machine is more cramped and harder to do small tasks with. Deactivating the case feeder is much harder on the 650. Removing a case in station 1 is a PITA compared to other machines. I will live with all it's over engineering because it brings more reliability as a result.
Some guys in this thread blame the press for issues with the dies. Please don't.
Use quality dies like Redding and you will see that the issues go away irregardless of the color of your press. The same goes for choice of brass and primers. Don't go cheap on the primer brands and don't use unsorted range pickuped brass.
I load straight walled cases all the way from 9x19mm to .444 Marlin in my LNL. My press has serial number #00146 and just keeps on ticking. I get the occasional spare part from Hornady now and then when they wear out, so I can't say I've ever had trouble due to the design itself. Same would go for my friends who reload on Dillons, no problems there either, as long as you use quality dies, brass and primers and keep the press in good condition.
A couple of tips on the LNL:
* Put a small soda bottle on the end of the primer tube. Cut a hole in the cap and push the tube through it.
* Change the ball handled lever to a Dillon roller handle. It will fasten just fine if you screw it on tight on both sides with the nuts. This will increase leverage and lessen the exertion on the operator.
* There's no need to use the hard to reach nut that holds the primer punch. The primers will seat fine when primer slide is on top of the punch and changing from small to large punch will go in seconds.
* Put a small paper flag on a thin stick or (dry!) soda straw and put it in the primer tube. Adjust the length so that when the last primer goes into the slide, the flag will touch the primer tube. Then you'll know when to add more primers. After a while you will also learn to feel when the slide comes out empty.
* Fasten a small plastic or cardboard container on the right side of the press so you can reach bullets with a shorter motion.
* As mentioned already, put a flashlight shining down through the center hole in the top to easier see if the powder charge has dropped correctly.
I have never used a powder cop die, nor do I see the reason for it. I have never had a squib load and I reload 10-30000 round each year on my LNL.
The powder through expander is also not needed. Use a quality expander die in station #2 instead.
This is my setup for all calibers:
Station #1: Redding sizer/decapper die
Station #2: Redding expander die
Station #3: Hornady case activated powder drop
Station #4: Redding seater die
Station #5: Redding crimping die
Separating the expander/powder stages and the seater/crimping stages are crucial for reliable and accurate ammunition. But as always... Each to his own!
:EDIT:
One fellow in this thread said the bullet fell off when indexing the press. Have you adjusted the pawls on the indexing assembly? Mine runs so smooth you cannot feel the indexing unless you pull the lever painfully slow.
Last edited by Whistler; 05-05-2011 at 10:26 AM.
Colorado's experience with the LNL have been mine as well. A neighbor/shooting buddy down the road has one. He has had issues from day one. I have been there when he has talked to hornady and they treated him like ****. I know one station on his #1 doesn't line up the best. Also he has never gotten the press to prime consistently. He primes off press and if he holds his tongue just right he does all right(slow consistent movements needed)
That lnl was the reason for buying my used 650. My experience with customer service from dillon has been the best I have ever experienced. If I was buying new however I do think I would have gone with a 550 simply because of cost of conversion kits and not really needing the output of the 650.
Friend has had issues with his lnl dropping 4350 as well. Really it's a moot point as h414 is pretty equivalent but is a ball powder. For .223 there is some good ball powders as well.
Another friend loads 22-250 ammo on his dillon 550 and it's as accurate (.25 MOA) as loading on his RCBS RC as long as he feeds some dummy cases in the beginning/end of a run.
I timed myself to see how fast I was able to reload if all I had to do was pull the handle. I wasn't going for pulling the handle as fast as I could because I like to feel the primer being inserted into the case and I like to feel the primer being pushed out of the case.
At 2 minutes, I had 30 9mm loaded rounds in the tray. If all I had to do was pull/push the handle, this would equate to 900 rounds/hr but, of course, there are occasional stoppages during the loading process to fill primers, correct a casing that didn't get fed in correctly, double check power drops, put more cases in the feeder, etc. Overall, it took almost 2 hours from the time I stepped out into the garage to reload to the time I flipped off the light when I was done to load 500 rounds of 9mm with 3 types of bullets (120 gr TC cast lead, Precision Delta 124 gr HP, and 121 gr Montana Gold IFP). Each bullet change required tweaking to the powder drop and bullet seater. This 2 hour window includes initial setup as well as cleanup afterwards.
btw....this was done on a Hornady L-N-L. Once I got it tuned in, it has performed great. One of the complaints I do have about it is that the twist lock for the Powder Drop will work itself loose so I have to pay attention to this and retighten it occasionally.
I just finished making a roller handle for my L-N-L last weekend so look forward to trying it out this weekend. It should help out things a little.
Last edited by Cranium; 05-05-2011 at 05:44 PM.
Call Hornady, they will send you a shim for the measure so it won't work it's self loose.Originally Posted by Cranium
For the record, under 6 mins per hundred is easy on the 650. This includes looking in every case for powder. It simply does not jam as often as the LnL did. I would never suggest loading fast but not safely. It also primes easier making loading fast easier.
Last edited by Colorado4wheel; 05-05-2011 at 08:54 PM.
I often think the same thing when I see someone comparing a RC to a Lee Reloader or Challenger press, but for some reason that's considered legitimate.
US Govt mantra: If it's moving tax it. If it's still moving regulate it. If it stops moving subsidize it
Thanks for the review ! it took alot of work on your part.
You may have the record for the longest post in cast bullets history at approx 160 lines ?
LOL ya thanks I guess I was just really frustrated when I was looking for actual first hand reviews of these two. I just wanted everyone to have an honest un-biased review of these two. Both are great presses and I'm sure If I only had one I wouldn't know the differance.
Thanks for taking the time out of your day to this review. Irregardless the press you choose, you did a fine job.
I just recently aquired a LnL press myself as I have a Dillon Square Deal B press to load my hand guns. I have lots of problems of primers getting flipped and getting seated sideways and crushed. My bench is a solid mount, however I am going to build a steel column and mount to concrete floor for both the Dillon and the LnL. From all the friends that I have that owns the LnL, they have not had problems out of primers getting flipped and seated. Hopefully once I get the LnL set up and mounted, I will be able to see first hand how it runs just as you have...
I will use the Dillon SDB for all handguns and the LnL for my rifles...
I just did a couple of mods to my Hornady that I liked on the Dillon. These are the strong mount and roller handle arm.
The mount is a piece of 6" aluminum I-beam from a scrap yard by my house. It cost me <$20.
The roller handle arm was a bit more expensive at $30. The roller handle was $20 and the steel rod was $10. All I needed to do was use a torch to heat up the rod where I wanted to bend it then give it a 45° bend. Use a die to put threads on the end then grind a flat where the handle goes and tap a hole for the handle to screw into.
I just wish I had been able to match the paint a little closer. I had read somewhere that it was close to Ford Red engine paint. It's not.
That handle looks really cool man. Gavin over at ultimatereloader.com makes handles excatly like that and sells them. I have been thinking about either making one for mine or just buying one he made. He has that exact same roller for the handle. I had asked where he got that from but hasn't answered me yet. Would you mind passing on some info as to where a person can get that chrome roller handle please? I would definatly appreciate the info..
Again, great job fabricating that handle!!!!
Thanks. I got the idea from seeing it at ultimatereloader.com. He was out of stock the past few times I looked so I decided to just make my own. If you include the cost of the tap and die I bought, I still saved a couple bucks.
You can get the roller handles here: http://www.reidsupply.com/Detail.aspx?itm=B6-37. Amazon sells their products as well. With s/h, it was $20 for just one.
Lots of interesting info here.
I am a fairly recent owner of a LNL progressive, having mine about 18months.
I went with the LNL because of Cabela's points on my card and a 1000 " free" bullets.
Without those incentives, I'd still be using the single stage!
I did find a sizable learning curve after running a single stage press since the 1960s, but once through that, do'in OK.
I note some posters giving times and amounts of ammo produced, and fully intend to never go there!
After using the single stage for so many years, even at a relitively slow and relaxed pace the LNL turns out great quanities of ammo at warp speed when compared to the previous 40 or so years of reloading.
My LNL is used only for handgun ammo, the old Rockchucker being the go to press for ALL rifle ammo production.
As per the "zip" spindal in the Hornady dies, I really don't see the point/need.
Never had much of a problem with the screw in type, so what's the point.
I like the Hornady dies - other then the hokie zip spindal - and the last sets of dies bought have all been the Hornady brand.
However, I just make sure the lock nut is tight on the zip spindal and it is totally a non issue.
In spite of the origional poster using slightly different presses, as per auto indexing etc. I think the post was well done and not overly pro Blue which seems to be a problem with lots of people.
Red is doing fine by me and will only get better.
By the way, like that aftermarket/home made press handle.
However, the best way for press mounting for all styles/makes of presses and loading tools is still the underbench receiver system!
Keep em coming!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
I don't understand, do you have any pictures?
-StaTiK-
StaTiK,
Sorry, but I am challenged with posting images. Need some one to sit down with me and just walk me through it.
However, For those interested, I have sent out a CD and cover letter showing the system and how I use it.
Basicly, if you can imagine a car or pickup receiver tube for a trailer hitch and then installing it under the loading bench. This allows for NO HOLES or cuts in your bench top, very quickly exchanging loading tool or tool positions and as said, all while maintaining a smooth hole free bench top.
I have seen postings of very well done bench top rail or exchangable inset plate systems for loading tools, but this system beats them all, hands down.
On my LNL press, I also have the press mount raised above bench level, but this is also done using the under bench receivers.
So, if interested, send me a snail mail address and I'll send the info your direction.
Keep em coming!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Oh man thanks. Just what I have been looking for. Got that page favored..Will be ordering that roller handle soon...Thanks. I got the idea from seeing it at ultimatereloader.com. He was out of stock the past few times I looked so I decided to just make my own. If you include the cost of the tap and die I bought, I still saved a couple bucks.
You can get the roller handles here: http://www.reidsupply.com/Detail.aspx?itm=B6-37. Amazon sells their products as well. With s/h, it was $20 for just one.
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