410 loading ?'s and chronoing?

[lar45]

I've been playing with some reduced loads for the 410.
The kids like shooting them better than factory ammo and it is about 1/2 the cost.
I have some of the Magtech 2.5" brass 410 cases and some 444 cases also. My Mossberg bolt action 410 will not close on the 444 cases, but the Stoeger single shot will.

BPI 2.5" primed plastic hull from midway($14/100), Fed. 1/2 oz wad($6.50/250),
11 grains 2400 with .4oz no 7 shot, and a BPI fiber wad($10/500) glued on top.
Any ideas on chronographing the loads? I haven't tried yet, but would imagine that it could be a pain.
I used regular Elmers white glue, but it didn't hold very well. I may try a drop of krazy glue, but I think it would leave a residue on the hulls. (just read suggestion for rubber cement that has worked. I'll try that)
What I'd like to find is a way to put the factory star crimp on the plastic hulls and use a regular loading press. A 444 shell holder fits the 410 rim.
The cost for buying and loading is around $5.70/25 shells. Then reloading will be around $3/25. Even if I just used the primed hulls once and threw them away, it would be half of the store price.
I don't have a way to size the base of the plastic hulls yet. I think I'll get a 460 S&W size die and see if it will take the 2.5" length inside.
The fired hulls still drop into the chamber, but I would imagine that they will need sizing sometime.
Anybody have thoughts on Star crimping the plastic hulls?
sizeing the base?
Or chroning the loads? (I'd like to keep the reduced shot loads to around 1150 fps so it will be similar to factory loads to keep swinging and follow through the same.)

Another thought I had(after reading the 9.3x74R 3" case for the 45/410 TC in the special projects section).
What about makeing a Magnum load with the x74R case? Maybe use a thin over powder wad, then fill the case with shot and another wad on top? You might be able to get a full 1 oz of shot in.
I wonder if quickload would even be close on predicting pressures??
TIA

[Pepe Ray]

Lar45,
Very interesting project. Like mine. A .45Colt/.410 Rossi SS,Break action w/removable choke.

I've got the brass 410 hulls and .444 cases to play with but the 9.3x74R is news to me. Where did you get them?

Someone else (Old Ironsights??) is dealing w/similar problems. Think he's playing w/a Win9410.

Keep on keepin on. I'll try to keep up.
Pepe Ray

[Old Ironsights]

I'm going the other way. I'm trying to push the .410 brass for hot slugs out of my Win 9410.

However, the CBC brass won't fit a #11 shell holder for me.

There are a couple of roll-crimp tools available for .410 plastic. One from Graf & Sons, and there is one available on Doug's Slugs. http://geocities.com/doug410slug/index.html

You put an over-shot card on then roll-crimp it.

Couldn't help you with star crimp though. Probably won't find one not attached to a press.

I'm not sure you are going to be able to do plastic & shot well without a MEC or Lee though.

BTW: This: http://www.4-10.co.uk/ is a great resource.

[Old Ironsights]

Glen... I may be able to get you a Lee Loader in 3"/.410 if you are interested...

[lar45]

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe...*670***9013***
Midway has 9.3x74R brass by Norma.
I don't have any of this, but was reading in the special projects section. I may buy 20 cases just to play with

Yes on the Lee 3" 410 tool

Dougs Slugs looks like a great site. I've never seen it before. A roll crimp would be great.

The 410 brass rims fit my Dillon 550 shell holder for 45 colt.
I have a whole set of shell holders, I'll see if it fits another #.

Another question about the CBC cases is what to use for a mouth expander/bell die? The mouth on my unfired 410 cases is .441" ID. Maybe pick up a Lee die set for the 43 Spanish or Mauser?

I think that for crimping over a shot card, maybe I could use the Lee factory crimp die for the 444 Marlin? Or maybe just a roll crimp in the regular seat/crimp die.

It would be nice if the Win 9410 had interchangable choke tubes. Then you could get a rifled one for your slugs.

I'm playing with a Stoeger single shot break open 410. It's a pretty nice little gun. It has a vented sight rib and the action breaks open by pulling on the front of the trigger gaurd. It was around $110 + tax.

Time to go check out Dougs Slugs some more.

[Old Ironsights]

Actually, there is an interchangable choke tube variant of the 9410, and I could probably get a new barrel fitted for about $300 (The barrel is $190 from Winchester) but I am looking to use this as a big (full bore), short range high pressure gun, and a choke would, well, choke.

That's why Doug's slugs are .375... to get through choked guns. That's a lot of rattling around &/or re-swaging going on to blow a hollow base to .41x then choke it down again. I know rifled chokes are closer to cylinder bore, but still...

[Pilgrim]

A couple of years ago I fooled around with some .375 RB's in my .410's just out of curiousity. The weight of 3 ea. .375 RBs' is less than 11/16 oz. (~300 gr.) advertised for the .410 - 3". A .375 RB is about 85 gr., so 3 of them would be ~255 gr. In addition, 3 ea .375 RB's fits nicely in a plastic shotcup (WW410) in a 3" case, and a crimp holds everything together nicely. IMO a .375 round ball at 1200 or so fps would be a pretty good anti-personnel load, or even a short range killer for coyotes or ?? So I loaded 3 ea. in a .410 shotcup (WW410), with granulated filler around them to minimize the damage to the RB during firing. 3 ea RBs with filler fits neatly in a 3" case (old WW paper cases I found at a "junk" store! I love prowling in those places.). My memory says the last RB was partially out of the shotcup, but fit nicely in the case. I fired them out of a cylinder bore .410 (barrel cut off on a cheap Stevens bolt - my boat gun) at 25 yards. The three RBs' consistently spread to around 6" at 25 yds, and IIRC, were still on paper at 50 yds. I used WC820 powder, about 13 gr. which is the same as for W296 for the 11/16 shot load. There were no apparent problems with pressures or cases sticking. I don't believe I chrono'd the loads but since they were slightly less than a 11/16 oz. shot load, I figured the velocity would be roughly the same or around 1200 to 1250 fps. FWIW Pilgrim

[lar45]

I checked my shell holders and the CBC brass 410 cases and plastic hulls will fit in a no. 5, the same as the regular mag(338 win.)

Several years ago I shot a Deer with a 12ga 3" with no 1 buck. I think it got 5 or 6 hits and went down right away. Who knows what the velocity was, but I would think that if you could get 3 .375 round balls in the heart/lung area it should work pretty good.
I shot a small mulie with a 357 revolver and 110 JHP and it piled up within 40 yards. A couple .375 soft round balls should do about as well.
After the 357 Deer, I wanted to try something smaller like the 30 Carbine or 32 H&R to see how it would work. It would have to be a broadside shot only.

What size is the choke on your 9410?
What about a 375 cast bullet in the shot cup? If it stayed in the shotcup going out the barrel(I'm sure it would) would the plastic cup squash down so as to not hurt the muzzle? It would probably tumble right away, so the hollow base would be better.
Your Win should only take the 2.5" shells?
I wonder how the flat case mouth will feed? You might have to load so the last round ball is half way out and the mouth crimped to hold it in. Then you would have a round nose for better feeding.
Or maybe a roundball or 2 under the hollow base slug. Like the Buck and Ball loads from the Blunder Buss?

the hollow base is probably the answer as it can expand to fit the bore and swag down going out the choked muzzle.
I was reading somewhere about blown skirts when the pressure got too high. Could have been a muzzle loader? So you may have to play with raiseing the pressure until you get blown skirts and then stay below that level.

[Old Ironsights]

Is that a LEE #5? I need to be able to use my Auto-prime.

Indiana won't allow multiple projectiles. Gotta be a solid slug.

My 9410 is cylinder bore, and mics out at .415 by my inexpert use of the caliper.

The skirt shouldn't blow out so long as the OD of the slug and the ID of the bore are snug. The only reason for the hollow base in the way I want to use it (full caliber) is to create the nose-heavy tail-drag Foster effect.

[Pepe Ray]

A Lee #5 is the same as a Lyman #13 & RCBS #4

Pepe Ray

[woody1]

lar45 - I just found this thread...you're asking questions faster than I can form replies. You're a man after my own heart re: the little 410. Go ahead and chrony them just start close and don't move back any further than necessary. As I recall I'm about 12 feet and have had no problem.
Misc loads I’ve used in the .410

Rem case 3/8 oz. Shot - 8.5 gr. Herco, Win 209 + card wads & styro to fit - 1215 fps 1 shot - 8.0 gr. Herco 1153 fps 1 shot

*******************
½ oz shot WAA410 Win 209 14 gr. 2400 w/ 1 card wad + styro to fit -1235 fps - 1 shot
***********
3 balls loaded as above 886 fps w/ styro wads
1075 fps w/ card wads
***********************
1 ball in shortened Win AA 410 case+8 gr Herco + card+styro - 1338 fps and 1296 fps - 2 shots.

Regarding the 444 cases, if you thin the rim (from the front) you'll prob'ly find they'll fit OK. I've used them a lot and found that the only sizing I needed to do I did in a 308 die. I usually do this after I've loaded them and it just squeezes everything back to size. Yes, they do swell when fired. If you've got a gun with nice smooth chamber walls, you may not have to resize. Just try 'em back in the gun. I don't use store bought wads or shotcups. I just cut wads and overshot cards using a homemade cutter. Wads cut from styrofoam meat packages make dandy fillers when placed over a lubed card overpowder wad. I also use the 308 seat die shoulder to roll over the mouth a little to crimp. Works dandy for me. I've recently started using a peanut made of cornstarch as filler instead of styrofoam. Just squash 'em and stuff and top with a card wad.

Resizer for the shell base for regular hulls - make one from a washer. That's how I made mine - prob'ly from 7/16 and honed and smoothed it inside until it gave the size I wanted. Put it over your shell, which you have in your shellholder in your press. Stack a couple larger washers over it and raise it and jam the "sizer" washers over the head. Then, you did make an ejector pin didn't you? Mine is from a 5/16" bolt with one end slimmed to use as a primer punch and the head end machined to fit the shellholder. So you invert the case over the punch and raise the whole mess into your die hole in the press and eject the shell from the sizer. Wheew Much easier to do than describe. Pictures would work better. More later re: crimping in a standard press. Regards, Woody

[woody1]

Loading 410's

Let me start by saying I don’t have to use a 410 but it just so happens that I am the current caretaker of two. These have a history. One, an old IJ Champion that belonged to my Aunt, the other is a bolt action Western Field (prob’ly a Stevens) that belonged to my wife’s father. I mostly use them around the place, keeping ground squirrels out of the yard and garden and shooting starlings and tree sparrows. An occasional quail may find it’s way to our dinner table too.

After trying to find a Lee loader for 2 ½" .410 shells for years at a decent price and not wanting to spring for a high class loader for a box or two of .410's a year, I’ve figured out how to reload AA hulls with commonly available dies.

I deprime with a hammer and punch, the Lee way. A decapping punch can be made from a 16d nail or any number of things. I reprime with a piece of tubing that fits inside the hull (essentially the Lee way) using 3/8"o.d.. tubing.

Add appropriate powder charge for ½ oz. load and top with homemade over powder card wads. Add styrofoam fillers to get proper crimp and add ½ ounce of shot. I top the shot column with an overshot card just in case the crimp isn’t perfect and it often isn’t. The overshot card only has to be about as thick as a 3x5 card. I usually cut mine from cheapie paper plates after I’ve used ‘em for targets. Over powder wads I make from all sorts of cardboard from primer boxes, cereal boxes and even used priority mail boxes.

I cut my wads with a sharpened .308 Winchester case cut below the shoulder mounted in a drill and push ‘em out of the case with a nail thru the bored out flashhole. I use a sharpened .40 S&W case to cut the filler wads and the overshot cards. I just use an RCBS chamfering tool for sharpening the wad cutter.

Other stuff needed:
6-point hand crimp starter from Lee (mine is for 20 gauge)
RCBS .308 Winchester seating die (others may work, I don’t know)
RCBS wadcutter seating stem for .32 S&W long
Shellholder for belted magnums (RCBS #4, Lyman #13 or equivalent) better is an RCBS#24 slightly opened up with a dremel tool.
Various dowels and/or punches for seating wads
Wad fingers are a great help but finger finesse works too.

I know everyone doesn’t have all this stuff, but most of it’s available pretty reasonably at gun shows. At least it is around here. I happen to have all of it in my shop. Don’t own a belted magnum either.

Proceeding with the process:

From here on it’s kinda tricky and takes a lot of fiddling to get set up right, but it works for me.
Using the hand crimp starter, start the crimp folds reforming. Use a gentle hand here until you get it right.

I accomplish the crimp by starting it with the crimp starter from Lee. Then with the seater raised, raise the shell into the die until the crimp (shell mouth) begins to contact the die shoulder. This starts the crimp closing process. At this point you do not want the shell contacting the seater stem. After the crimp is closed enough that the seating stem can capture it begin lowering seating stem and raising and lowering the ram to complete the crimp. Check your progress several times during the process. Don’t try to do it all in one step. The crimp must be forced inward and also downward until it’s flat. Then, finally, recessed. This step usually requires the shell to be slightly lower in the die while at the same time the seating stem is lowered. Finally, a radius on the shell can be made by raising the shell in the die to contact the die shoulder (after raising the seating stem).

The crimping process is the most difficult part to complete and just takes some fritzing around and trial end error until you get it right. The case mouth must be closed until narrow enough for the seat stem in the final crimp die to grab it and force it inward while forcing it down also.

Using the .308 seat die and .32 wadcutter seating stem, adjust the die and seat stem so the shell is supported, yet the seat stem grabs the folded case mouth and turns the folds downward. When everything is adjusted and goes well, the crimp I obtain is sometimes as good as the factory crimp. On some shells the case mouth will bulge a little and I run it back into the .308 seat die to final finish the crimp by bumping the die shoulder.. Crimps will not always be perfect especially the second, 3rd, or 4th reload. Oh well, even a couple of reloads beat the cost of factory loads.

E-gunparts has Lee 410 6 point crimp starters and wad fingers so I have them now.
I’ve also found that using the RCBS #4 shellholder is OK for the Win AA’s but some Remington’s and most Federal’s wouldn’t fit. I had an RCBS #24 which I enlarged slightly with a Dremel tool and now they all fit that shellholder. I’ve also found that I can resize the brass head by using a polished out washer and a piece of pipe. A 3/8" washer reamed out with a dowel and sandpaper does the job. I need to photo that process.

I’ve also bought a bunch of old cardboard wads off of e-Bay and have some Winchester 410 shotcups so I can pretty much duplicate any factory load.

Circle Fly has cardboard wads you can buy.

May 2005 - Shot some 410’s across the chronograph. Using the old Champion single barrel shotgun, Remington case, Win. 209 primer, 3/8 oz. Shot, .200 card wad + styro wads to fill and 8.5 gr. Herco, one shot was 1215 fps. The same with 8 grains Herco was 1153 fps.. One half oz. Shot in WAA 410 case and Win 209 primer with 14 gr. 2400 with 1 card wad + styro fillers was 1215 (1 shot). Using 3 .375 balls and styro wads one shot was 886 and one with card wad was 1075 fps. Both prob’ly with 14 gr. 2400. But not labeled. One .375" ball in shortened (to just barely cut the crimp off and use rolled crimp on reload) WAA 410 case, 8 grains Herco + .200" card wad + styro to fill was 1338 and 1296 fps. (2 shots). (Reloaded same case twice.)

Remington factory slug chrono’d. at 1767 fps from Western Field bolt gun.
Ho’made ½ oz. shot shells w/ ~14 gr. 2400 chrono’d. ~1190 fps

Feb. 19, 2005 - Today I tried using the seater that came with the RCBS 308 dies. I filled it almost full of paper towel jammed in tight. I left a slight “lip” to capture the crimp. It worked. It’s almost too short but will work.

Any loads shown here are NOT suggested loads for anyone. They ARE loads I have used and appear safe in MY guns. Use your own recipes and your own common sense.

You WILL screw up some (maybe lots) crimps. Most that I screw up are still shootable for my use. Was I shooting skeet for $ I darn sure wouldn’t reload this way, but it keeps me happy and it keeps my wife happy ‘ cause it keeps me home and outa the bars and houses of ill repute.


March 16, 2006 - loaded some 3 ball loads and slug loads both using 18 grains of milsurp 4759. Too windy and nasty to chronograph but shot well and may actually not be a very hot load. My basis for loading was 18 grain loads using ½ oz of shot and H110 or WW296 and 4759 is listed as a tad slower than these. My slugs only weigh around 140-150 grains and the 3 ball loads are also considerably under ½ oz. The slugs are made from 380 empties with about 100 grains of lead melted into them (reject 100 gr. boolits). I then flare the base and fill it with boolit lube of most any sort available.. Loaded over the 18 grains of 4759 with card wad column adjusted for fit. Regards, Woody

[woody1]

Crimped using 308 Win dies as described. Some good, some not-so-good. All shootable for me. Most or all the not-so-goods are multiple fired hulls. Using a thin overshot wad makes 'em most all usable and assures the shot stays in! I see a couple there where I didn't. Regards, Woody

[357maximum]

A .410 Mec reloader works pretty good too....you guys make me tired....there should be several "INNOVATION" awards handed out here...good job fellas..

What I want to know is WHY OH WHY Lyman does not still make a .410 slug mold...they would sell like hotcakes...I have played with a few old single cav lyman molds trying to make a decent .412 slug on several occassions...still trying...

Someday...I am going to build a 41 caliber "rifle" barrel for an encore that uses .444 marlin brass...start with a barrel suitable for 41 mag and deepen and enlarge the chamber...then I could use any .41 caliber boolit...and be able to push it a little harder than traditional 410's...I'll mark the barrel

.410(slug only)


still have to figure out some dimensions...but the idea has been flopping around in my head for awhile now...


You guys just brought it back to the surface...thanks

Michael

[Old Ironsights]

I've got Veral working on a true 200gr (1/2oz) .410 hollowbase slug mold right now...

I intend to shoot it out of my cylinder bore 9410 at about 1800fps by using CBC brass. I call it the .410 SLAM (Slug, Lever Action Magnum)

Using a measured Case Capacity of 82gr water, calculated bullet length of .705 and assumed bullet weight of 200 my load calculator figures 35gr H4198 for around 1900fps and 21kCUP and 1600+ftLbs ME – which puts it quite acceptably/ballistically into the Buffalo Bore .44mag rifle range… perfect for deer out to 100yds – assuming sufficient accuracy anyway.

Since the 9410 is essentially an unrifled 1894 in .444 with a long throat, I think it should handle 1/2 the pressure of a .444 quite handily.

Oh, and here is a nice cut-away of the CBC .410 in comparison to a Rem .444 case. The slugs are one each of Rem & Federal. My slug will probably be a hair longer.

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=Old Ironsights;124907]I've got Veral working on a true 200gr (1/2oz) .410 hollowbase slug mold right now... [QUOTE]


I hope you get a multi-cavity mold....everyone will want some "samples' I know I would be interested....sounds intrigueing....keep us updated...

[Old Ironsights]

Tough to multi a nose-pour hollow base...

WARNING: This slug will NOT be suitable for ANY choked gun. The purpose of the deep hollow base is strictly for the Foster effect. Otherwise this is a pure bore-slug dimensional boolit.

No CAD files yet, but maybe soon...

[357maximum]

Tough to multi a nose-pour hollow base...

...

You got me there...I was visually inspecting my colon ....

[OLPDon]

357 Max:

Sounds like another Group Buy that I can't afford but can't afford not too.
I'm in>>>>>>>>> Don

[rockrat]

Interesting thread. Keep us posted on your endeavors. I have one of the Marlin guns that has been calling to me to try the same with the 9.3 x 74 R and round ball loads. Wonder if you can get 4 in there. Maybe with a card spacer between the round balls. If I had a mould, I could cast some out of Linotype so wouldn't get the deformation that probably would occur.