Is there a max # or wraps?

[wallacem]

Okay, I am learning, and want to use .410 bullets to pp 44 mag. It will take 5 wraps to make it .430. Will this work?

[303Guy]

That would make it a paper sabot. Perhaps you could make a paper 'jacket' as opposed to a patch - the patch comes off at the muzzle while a jacket stays on. You might try toughening the paper with some form of glue between the layers but I would say that at best it would be good for light loads only. The dictum is that the patched boolit core should be bore diameter plus a tad unless the lead is pure and therefore soft in which case the patched diameter may be bore size. You are probably entering a whole new ball game there so a lot of experimenting is going to be required. Oh - sizing the patched/jacketed boolit would compress and harden the 'jacket' a bit. Good luck!

[pdawg_shooter]

I have never had ANY accuracy when the bullet is smaller than the bore diameter. I size mine .001/.0015 OVER bore diameter and patch up to .001/.003 OVER groove diameter, or as large as my chamber will allow. If this works for you please let us know.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

If I could get paper wrapped around it I've shot it. Over the years I've experimented with "multiple" wraps and found that bullets smaller than bore diameter shot about "minute of barn door". Every once in awhile one or two might hit somewhere near where you were aiming but not with any consistency. I did get about 6" targets at 50 yds by wrapping dry and then seating the bullet immediately with some 7mm jacketed in a 30-06. The fun is in the trying. There is one good thing about it though...... it sure shines and smooths up the inside of the barrel.........

[nanuk]

I have never had ANY accuracy when the bullet is smaller than the bore diameter. I size mine .001/.0015 OVER bore diameter and patch up to .001/.003 OVER groove diameter, or as large as my chamber will allow.....

If I could get paper wrapped around it I've shot it. Over the years I've experimented with "multiple" wraps and found that bullets smaller than bore diameter shot about "minute of barn door". Every once in awhile one or two might hit somewhere near where you were aiming but not with any consistency. ....

I wonder, does it seem like paper, even though strong and tough when compressed, still allows an undersized boolit to cant upon firing?

I wonder if an undersized Jword could be patched large and prove accurate, or would it be "Flying" also. ( if my theory is correct, it would produce multiple flyers also )

[docone31]

I have done three wraps with traceing paper. Did ok.
Only two wraps with notebook paper.
The three wraps was to find my diameter. I then changed sizeing die and did two wraps.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

I wonder if an undersized Jword could be patched large and prove accurate, or would it be "Flying" also. ( if my theory is correct, it would produce multiple flyers also )[/QUOTE]

When patching an undersize projectile my belief is that once it becomes smaller than "bore" the wrapping becomes a sabot rather than a patch. The rifling then grasps the "sabot" and any concentricity issues in the "sabot" are magnified and transferred to the projectile. Just a guess, with no hard info to back it up.

Mike

[longbow]

I have not tried more than 3 wraps which in some cases seems to work but boolits are near or at bore diameter.

I read an article by Ross Seyfreid many years ago where he had paper patched many quite undersize "J" bullets for odd calibers where factory "J" bullets were rare or unavailable. It seems to me he went as far as 7mm to .30 cal but he did rough up the jackets by rolling bullets under a coarse file before patching to give the paper some grip.

I found that my results are about the same as pdawg_shooter and Smoke-um if you got-um regarding undersize lead boolits but I have to wonder if the harder copper (less give) allows use of a smaller "core" and still cuts the paper. In any case Ross got away with smaller bullets than I have but then I have never patched "J" bullets either.

Longbow

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Longbow -I remember that article now that you mentioned it. I always liked his style of writing. My own experience with jacketed 7mm to 30 cal is to patch bone dry and seat immediately in an un-sized neck. I twist a little pig tail on the end as it helps seating w/o the dry patch slipping. It takes quite a few wraps to get to .312 and I take them out over the ogive by about .050 thou. I moisten the exposed patch and mold it to the ogive towards the nose. I seat them long and let the rifling engrave the paper and finish seating the bullet after they dry. A light crimp to keep everything in place. About the best I can get is approx. 6" at 50-60 yds. Not exactly benchrest accuracy but is repeatable and would kill a deer at that range. I use a 30-06 starting load of 4350 for the same bullet weight. Paper flies everywhere when you pull the trigger. It's not something a man would use everyday but could be useful in a pinch.

Mike

[303Guy]

I wonder, does it seem like paper, even though strong and tough when compressed, still allows an undersized boolit to cant upon firing?

Good point. However, the stresses that take place during the firing of a cartridge far exceed the 'strength and toughness' of paper. It's likely that in the 'sabot' mode, the paper actually slips on the copper jacket. With a lead projectile, the pressure of the rifling impressing into the paper gets transfered into the lead core. I suspect also that the lead core, unless very hard will 'creap' or 'flow' a little during its passage down the barrel while being subjected to what is actually quite a powerful force on the boolit base. Then again, while a lead alloy core would conform to the paper better it would do so inconsistantly. (I have measured varying alloy hardness over the length of a boolit - no BHN values, just conspicuous differences).

[pdawg_shooter]

I started out patching .308 jacketed up to .318 back in the 60s. That got a fine old Mauser off the wall and back shooting. I have tried .284 to .308 and I just as well threw the rifle at the target. I cant make it work, hope you can.

[303Guy]

Barra just gave me an idea. It might be a non-starter but maybe worth trying. Try dipping that paper saboted bullet in molten parafin wax so as to make the paper sabot actually solid. That might prevent the bullet from canting.

[Lonegun1894]

I've tried about 15 .243 JSPBT (unknown brand) bullets paper-saboted to .310 for use in a .30-30. At 100 yds, I could keep my shots on a full-size human silhouette, and about half the shots stayed on a piece of notebook paper (about 8x11) I had taped in the middle of it. Most of them left perfect sideways profiles of the bullets as they were keyholing very badly. I also tried 10 of .284 JSP (also unknown brand), and managed to keep all except one on the same notebook paper, but about half keyholed with these also. I was given a few of the above, and dont have anything in those diameters so got curious and tried it.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

...don't have anything in those diameters so got curious and tried it.

Curiosity, more often than not, is also my motivation.

Mike

[nanuk]

and you never Really know until you try