30-40 Krag 303 Brit.

[JSH]

I asked the same at another site. I thought I would run this by you guys too.

Not a poll or anything. I have always been curious as to why the 30-40 or the 303 were never wildcatted. I have seen the Epps and the 3040AI, with the AI being more popular. Heck even take the 303 to a straight wall.
Brass is easy enough and cheap enough to find and use. I do remember seeing somthing years back some place the Aussies use the 303 for a bunch of neat looking calibers.
I have ran both of these cases into what ever I could to bump shoulders and expand up and down in caliber.
Jeff


I know the brass is thin. It may have had issues years back, but I think the newer brass is of better quality. I ran 303 and 30-40 into a 7BR form and trim die, made a cute little case.
Mick, if you have any links to wildcats on either of these, I would like to take a look.
Jeff

[BruceB]

Never wildcatted?? I beg to differ, pard.

The two cases have been necked up and down, shortened and blown out, to every conceivable shape possible. Most of this took place many years ago, of course, and the .303 and .30-40 have been supplanted in wildcatters' dreams by generations of newer cases. Even so, they've been converted to bore diameters from .14 to about .40 caliber, and everything in between.

The two rounds (and their wildcat children) still make fine numbers for single-shot rifles and those originally chambered for the parent cartridges. I still use both cartridges extensively, and haven't noticed any particular weakness in the current brass...most of my .303/.30-40 brass is R-P manufacture and seems to be good stuff.

P.O. Ackley had considerable data for many wildcats on these cases in his various books. Epps made rifles for .303 wildcats from .22 to .35, at least, and in EVERY common bore diameter within that span. Older books are a prime source for info on the early wildcat cartridges.

[Char-Gar]

Where have you been hiding? the 30-40 case has been wildcated every which way. I once had a 25 Krag Improved on a Winchester High Wall action and the round was a true screamer. Those were the days, when I thought more velocity was the answer to everything.

The 35 Krag remains a good caliber to rebore shot out Krag barrels.

[Bent Ramrod]

I have a Siamese Mauser that is in the process of being turned into a .25 Krag. I have forming dies for a 6mm Ackley Short Krag which I figure should come in handy for something someday.

I would think that the reason such wildcats have been passed by in the popular literature is the ubiquity of commercially-offered bolt action rifles that don't work well with rimmed cases. Most of the press then went to cover the wildcatting of the rimless and belted cases that worked in these rifles. But the rimmed case data is still out there for anyone who looks for it.

[No_1]

Here is my Siamese Mauser in 30-40 Krag. I bought it with the thoughts of building a 45-70 bolt rifle. Once I checked it out and shot it I decided to give it a chance. A Timney trigger was first then I had it parkerized since the wood was kind of plain/simple. I think it turned out ok for a utility rifle. I do like the rimmed cases. I like Ruger single shots and Siamese Mausers. I have tons of cases in 30-40, 45-70 and 30/30. I have dreamed of all sorts of wildcats but since the Siamese are hard to find and the Ruger single shots are kind of pricey I think it will be some time before the come to life.

[JSH]

I phrased my question wrong gents. In stead of never, I should have said not as popular. It is a rimmed case would be one strike against it to some.
Bruce, you are on track with what I had in mind on the single shots. Extraction and handling loaded and empty rounds are way better than the rimless with most single shots.
I have read quite a bunch of old Rifleman magazines I don't recall seeing much. I will have to look through them a bit more.
I was just curious as I figured I would get way more on hands response here rather than and educated guess as to what these two cases would handle today rather than older stuff. I think they will handle more pressure than given credit, with the correct action there?
Once again thanks.
Jeff

I should have thrown the 7.62x54 in for good measure.

[robertbank]

The Aussies played around with the .303 Brit more than anyone else on the planet I suspect. When Dave gets back from his most recent wanderings I suspect we will hear of some of the wildcats they developed and continue to use.

Take Care

Bob

[onceabull]

AND one or more of our members from Finland has/have posted brief comments on 7.62x54 wildcats..perhaps will notice this thread and amplify..... Onceabull

[PAT303]

Mate 303's have been necked down to 22,I think there,s about 4 different ones on shortened,blown out and standerd length cases, 6mm,25/303's that were factory loaded and taipan which was the improved case. 270/303's were factory supplied and 35 caliber which a bloke shoots at my club and lastly 375 2 1/2 inch which was a factory round on lee speed rifles. There's now doubt more pat

[Buckshot]

...............Steve Garbe won the BPCR Silhuette Nationals at Raton in '99 or 2000 shooting a 30-40 blown out to 40 cal. Only he called it the 40-60 Maynard

Possibly one of the reasons you don't hear so much about the Krag being wildcatted so much is that at the time it came out (1894 really) Americans were in love with lever actions and single shots for hunting and target and schuetzen shooting.

So there was some wildcatting going on before WW1 as the Krags were surplused, being suplanted by the 30-'06 in the military. During WW1 The American male was introduced to the bolt action magazine rifle, and the 30-'06 cartridge by the millions.

The rimmed 30 US Gubmint didn't lend itself so well to bolt repeaters, and velocity was also becoming a more and more important aspect. Newton was active then and only the lack of powder technology kept him from being Mr Weatherby, 30 years before Roy became Mr Velocity.

The 30-40 just kind of got eclipsed. The 303 on the other hand was the British Commonwealth's military cartridge until 1956 I think it was.

...............Buckshot

[robertbank]

I don't not what time frame other countries within the Commonwealth began to change. I do know that decisions were being made to align and integrate the Canadian Armed Forces with the US and we adopted the 7.62 in the FN FAL about that time. Events at that time rather dictated the move. Personally I think it was head and shoulders a better service rifle than the M-14 and I suspect the latter may have been chosen for political rather than for performance. Seems to me I remember gun articles at that time commenting on the performance of the two guns.

Take Care

Bob

[BruceB]

My experience with both the M14/M1A and FAL is quite extensive. After using FALs almost continuously since 1961, and M14/M1A likewise since about 1980, I have done made a dee-termination: I LIKE THEM BOTH.

The FAL is a better combat weapon, I think. It's easier to clean, and also easier to substitute parts....although I have NEVER broken a part in either one, except when I dived for cover on frozen ground one time, and broke the pistol grip of my C1A1 (FAL). Mag changes are easier on the FAL, and controls are better-situated as well. However, it's a close-run thing when comparing them as combat rifles.

For pure shooting, the M14 is great, and more accurate than the FAL on average. The sights are superior, with accurate click adjustments, and to a rifleman, the M14 "feels" more like a real rifle. I had a pair of early M1As in the very early '80s, and after that a pair of genuine M14s, which were dirt cheap in Canada for a while (my second all-TRW M14 cost $CDN192.00 in excellent condition...choke on that!)

Canada was the first country to mass-produce the FAL and get it into service. I think the line started rolling about 1957, and rifles were even in the hands of militia regiments as soon as 1959, where I first encountered the C1 in the Lake Superior Scottish Regiment.

My entire summer of '61 was spent with a match-grade #4 Mk2 in hand, in the Army Cadet Rifle Coaching Program. In September that year, I was in the Regular Army (Armoured Corps), and was issued one of the very first Canadian-made C1 rifles, as well as a Canadian-made Sterling 9mm SMG. C1 Rifle numbering started at 0L0001, and mine was about 0L1300 or so. It was factory-packed in a sealed plastic sleeve with a cleaning kit, four mags, and a mag-loading guide. Packed in VPI powder, it was perfectly possible to take a new rifle from its packaging, load it, and fire for effect....no cosmoline. NEAT! After #0L9999, they'd change to 1L0001, and so on. I believe the highest number reached for C1/C1A1 FALS was in the 12L range.

Again, as pure rifles-as-rifles go, the #4 was much more of a shooter's rifle than the FAL. The C1 was certainly a better combat arm, though, and it worked well even in sub-zero cold. Thinking about it again, my heart goes to the M14....but I sure don't feel ill-equipped with an FAL in hand!

As I said, I like 'em both (AND the #4, for that matter).

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

hmmmmm,

my first centerfire rifle was a sporterized Krag in 25FL Krag. Rode a tractor for two weeks to finance the rifle and accessories at ninety-cents an hour. Tong tool, kake-cutter, small fudge pan and alox (the black stuff) Lyman mould, ten pound lead pot...all the high tech stuff for a 14 year old back in 1963.

Wildcats came in 22, 6mm, 25, 7mm and the 32 and 35 calibers. That long neck makes it one of the best parent cases for cast boolit shooters, IMHO!

Rich

[Doughty]

My favorite is the Krag case with the neck expanded for a .340 bullet. I shoot a 225 grain bullet @2400+ in a Ruger #1. Wouldn't want to try these loads in the military rifles, but a lower pressure load might be fun.

[versifier]

The Aussies played around with the .303 Brit more than anyone else on the planet I suspect. When Dave gets back from his most recent wanderings I suspect we will hear of some of the wildcats they developed and continue to use.

Take Care

Bob

Dave doesn't usually post over here, so I would seek him out over at GL or RLG where he posts under DOK and Oldbushman. As a professional shooter, he goes through several barrels a year and has been experimenting with all kinds of .303 wildcats for many years. I would be willing to bet that he kills more game in a working week than most of us see in a lifetime of hunting, so he can tell you much about their actual performance on game of various sizes, too.

[Bret4207]

You need to get Fred C. Ness's books "Practical Dope on the 22's" and "Practical Dope on the Big Bores", Charles Landis's "Hunting with the 22", "22 caliber Varmint Rifles", P.O. Ackleys "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" and most any other older books from the 30's, 40's and early 50's. They al discuss the various wildcats of the day. Many were based on the 303 and Krag. Good reads, all.