Initial test of BHN: 725 VS 925 degree pot.

[357shooter]

I've posted a more detailed explanation on my blog and won't go into all the details here. What I will say is that I really was hoping to cook down some WW to my preferred softer BHN of 8 or less. Decided to cast some at 725 too. That's not going to happen.

I did "cook" the WW for 2 hours at each temp.

1. The 725 degree bullet BHN, cast as soon as it reached temp is BHN 10.4
2. The 925 degree bullet BHN, cast 120 minutes after reaching temp is BHN 10.4

Every BHN is the same for the different time intervals tested. I measured the hardness 1 day after casting and expected to find it softer, and than to harden for a couple of. It's been so long since using WW I lost touch with how they cast.

My intention was not to test how it all casts, not to test for frosting, or anything else other than the BHN. So a bunch of replies on how this doesn't address the bigger picture are all right on the money.

It is what it is. You decide what the results mean.

[HangFireW8]

Hmmm...

I was chastised for casting at 740-750 for one mold that needs it, because I must be losing all my tin and antimony...

... as I pointed out the bullets have the same BHN as the WW stock they came from, but I still must be wrong, because I haven't been doing this for decades.

I prefer to cast around 680-700, and can go lower on well ventilated molds. It is hard to better ventilate a Lee 6-banger Tumble Lube mold, though, without ruining the warranty.

[357shooter]

There's been a lot of chastising going on. I've gotten it too. Decided to see for myself, actually wanted the lead to soften as my pure-lead supply is drying up and WW are harder than I prefer. Looks like I'll have to use the WW when that's all I can get as softening doesn't work.

[x101airborne]

Boy, you want to hear chastizing, ask about loading Lee 255rf that casts 238gr in a beefed up 45 acp pistol. I applaud you for actually trying something new. Everyone here thinks they got it under controll, but it is obvious who does and who doesnt. I would rather talk to a willing noob like myself than someone less open minded. To keep on topic, I have never had any success softening wheel weights other than adding pure.

[Calamity Jake]

As you found out melt temp will not effect hardness. That 10.4 BHN will get harder over time,
it should be 12-13 in a couple of weeks

You want a softer boolet? Use softer alloy!!!

[357shooter]

As you found out melt temp will not effect hardness. That 10.4 BHN will get harder over time,
it should be 12-13 in a couple of weeks

You want a softer boolet? Use softer alloy!!!

I think you missed the point. I have some harder alloy (in my case the WW) that I hoped could be softened.

Apparently it can't be by "cooking out the tin and antimony".

It's been awhile since cast pure WW, but I've not ever had them harden to 12-13. However I will check them to verify. As I run out of softer alloy the options are now limited, as I can't use what I can't get.

[pdawg_shooter]

Boy, you want to hear chastizing, ask about loading Lee 255rf that casts 238gr in a beefed up 45 acp pistol. I applaud you for actually trying something new. Everyone here thinks they got it under controll, but it is obvious who does and who doesnt. I would rather talk to a willing noob like myself than someone less open minded. To keep on topic, I have never had any success softening wheel weights other than adding pure.

I have been using a 240gr RNFP TL Lee bullet in my 45s for years now. Over 8.3gr of AA#5. This load is great in 2 Colt 1911s, and a Sig P220. Lots of rounds, no damage. Good accuracy. I use 50/50 WWs and pure. Size .452 and crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I know, I am doing everything wrong. Wonder why it works so good?

[357shooter]

airborne & pdawg: thanks for the encouragement.

[BABore]

Try skimming the pot just as soon as the alloy turns liquid. Then when your up to 850 F or so, stir it up and skim the oxidized scum a few times. No fluxing allowed. You may have to do this complete cycle a couple times. Then do your hardness test as before. It's far more efficient to add Pb, but do what you got to do.

Myself, I run 50/50 WW-Pb at 650 to 750 F. The ingots are well fluxed and cleaned of as much dirt as possible by constant stiring and skimming. Once they hit the casting pot, I only flux at the start and if I should have to add a major amount of new ingots. Otherwise, I never flux while casting. I only skim and dump. Constant fluxing every 100 casts or whatever caused me nothing but grief and ugly boolits.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Try skimming the pot just as soon as the alloy turns liquid. Then when your up to 850 F or so, stir it up and skim the oxidized scum a few times.

This was my thought as well.
I've never tried it, But it was my thought after reading the original post.

I am have the same situation as 357shooter
I am low on pure Lead.

If a guy was to do this during a smelt,
that is, cook, skim, cook, skim, cook...over and over and over.
I wonder how long it would take to get to a low BHN like 6 or 7 ?
then you could flux that dross into the next batch and get some
harder alloy.

Why am I intriged by this, I have lots of WW.
seems I cast alot of 50-50 and then some Ly #2 for rifle.
but very little straight WW.
Jon

[BABore]

My thinking is that tin bonds with antimony very well. Higher heat should oxidize the tin out first and once the oxide is skimmed it creates an imbalance. When the alloy is taken back to solid form, then brought to just the melting point, the unbonded antimony can be removed. I would save all the skimmings for later use when WW's are history.

[sqlbullet]

In my tests, varying temp from 650-700-750, I did get a change in hardness. My alloy was isotope lead that was analyzed as 96% lead, 3% antimony, 1% tin with traces of other metals. The hardness were 10.5, 11.2 and 11.7 respectively based on a 10 sample averages. I wonder what the difference is between this alloy and WW....Or if it was some other issue that impacted cooling rate.

Also, lead will oxidize out of that pot too. I would actually be surprised if you were to loose tin or antimony at enough faster rate to make much difference even after days of skimming, let alone a couple of hours.

I have personally never been chastised here for my casting temps. Had a lot of other things called into question: genetics, frequency with which I was dropped as a baby, parenting, etc. Seems to me that if you get good bullets and are happy with the results when shooting them, water on a ducks back. Plenty of guys don't even own a thermometer.

[gray wolf]

Some people just don't experiment,
some folks know when to and when not to.
I believe if there is a chance it may work then give it a try.
Sometimes it's pure lack of knowledge that makes us do things that someone else
would never do, because the person with a better understanding knows that certain things
just don't work. But then again it takes a lot of doing what will not work to get to that point.
I try everything and am not afraid to experiment.
that said, I have made some hum dinger messes and learned many things.

Trading the WW for pure, is one way around the problem.

[Jim]

From the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Third Edition, Page 43

[Bret4207]

Jims post tells it as i understand itafter reading it in the Lyman books, various Handloader mags, other mags like the old Precision Shooting when they were into cast. The Chemists tell us it doesn't separate. I kinda believe them.

For kicks, take all your dross from a few casting sessions an see if you can reduce a mess of it back into a small melt. Then see what the Bhn of it is. It won't tell you what it's make up is, but it might give you some ideas.

[357shooter]

Jim, thank you. I had read something similar I found via goggle and was hesitant to post it. I really appreciate it

[RobS]

In my tests, varying temp from 650-700-750, I did get a change in hardness. My alloy was isotope lead that was analyzed as 96% lead, 3% antimony, 1% tin with traces of other metals. The hardness were 10.5, 11.2 and 11.7 respectively based on a 10 sample averages. I wonder what the difference is between this alloy and WW....Or if it was some other issue that impacted cooling rate.

What outside air temp did you cast at for your results?

Ambient temps I've noted can affect the BHN of boolits as well. Cast in a garage at 8 degrees in the winter vs 100 degrees in the summer and the same alloy can yield differences. Alloy temp while casting can also make a difference in my experiences and even more so when I'm dropping them from a mold to an 8 degree towel.

[RobS]

I also ask you what was the amient temp that you cast at?

I'm interested in your experiments and always like reading post by those individuals who enjoy looking outside the box a little.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

there is nothing better than proving a myth to be false !
thanks Jim

I will no longer worry about losing tin rich dross, since it doesn't exist.
Jon

[swheeler]

"For kicks, take all your dross from a few casting sessions an see if you can reduce a mess of it back into a small melt. Then see what the Bhn of it is. It won't tell you what it's make up is, but it might give you some ideas." Bret

That would take a year to get enough to test the bhn. When I flux a 20 pound pot of alloy very seldom do I get even a teaspoon of dross, and it is like cigarette ashes.