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Thread: The proper use of fillers

  1. #121
    Boolit Grand Master
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    The problem with lint is it is not as springy as Dacron and responds unfavorably to jostling about over time. From actual testing it does not do well under “smack the case against the table” impacts as compared to Dacron. Being short non cohesive fibers this is to be expected.

  2. #122
    Boolit Mold
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    I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

    1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

    2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

    3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics View Post
    I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

    1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

    2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

    3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?
    That dacron is likely burned up in a vaporized instant. Doesn't take much heat to melt polymers and the pressure and temp of even slow or light loads would far exceed temps needed to melt it...

    Faster powders are great if they take up volume. Most don't. That's why trail boss is so loved, those little death donuts take up alot of room which means the powder orientation won't change from one shot to the next....burn will be completely consistent and the things that effect accuracy like extreme spread and standard deviation aren't as big of a factor with a volume filling powder (slow or fast)

    Ring in the barrel? Likely caused by a blockage at the neck of the case creating a fraction of a second log jam which causes pressures to spike above the working strength of the steel in the barrel.... causing a swell in a specific point of the barrel where high pressure and steel failure meet.

    Fillers are great, just can't stuff it in willy nilly and hope it works out.

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  4. #124
    Boolit Master Rapier's Avatar
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    I shot the 145g RCBS With LBT Blue lube for years in my Sinclair built 7mm TCU XP-100. The load was 15g H-4227 with the case filled over the top of the powder to 1/2 up on the neck with spherical buffer, as used in shot shell reloading to buffer the shot, then the bullet is seated to compress the load.
    My loading is done on a PW Metalic II in line progressive, with a Little Dipper powder throw dispensing the spherical buffer right after the powder throw. The combination works well and comes right out of the Handloading Annual article on cast bullets in the 7 TCU. The accuracy and energy is match quality for big bore silhouette.
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  5. #125
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    Physics

    I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

    Apologies for the late response.

    1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

    Incorrect use of dacron. Either as a "wad" instead of a filler of with too fast of a burning powder.

    2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

    Yes, if you read my treatise on this in my 1st post in this thread you will see I do not recommend the use of a dacron filler with a "fast" burning powder.

    3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?

    Never found any inside the case after firing. With low pressure loads that do not properly obturate the case neck I've found some residue on the outs of the neck.
    Larry Gibson

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  6. #126
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I've fired a few shots into a catch device. Dacron usually disperses as filaments but can be made to melt into a small ball. And as Larry says, sometimes some of it can get caught around the neck at low pressure.

    I use Dacron with fast powder because I fire straight down into the catch device and am not comfortable with the powder lying on the boolit base. I also sometimes load with the boolit fairly loose in the neck which could get pulled out, spilling powder. Just never pack the Dacron or any other filler down over the powder. It must be fluffed out and fill the case up into the neck.

    Chamber ringing seems to be not well understood. I do know that a full load of the correct powder for the cartridge and bullet produces full pressure yet does not expand the neck into rust pits in the neck area. On the other hand, a light load of fast pistol/shotgun powder that does not produce high pressure will iron the neck into those rust pits and jamb the case in the chamber, requiring a rod down the muzzle to get them out.

    Since this thread is on the proper use of fillers, I might mention that it can happen that the filler can remain in the case after firing. The burning powder and gasses goes around it. Not with Dacron though.
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  7. #127
    Boolit Master Rapier's Avatar
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    I found that just like 4227, at low pressure, where it leaves yellow goo balls of residue, that disappear with an increase in powder charge and/or pressure, the best use of spherical buffer occurs at relatively higher pressure, when compressed and used as a method to hold the powder charge to the cartridge base and level, at all times.

    This load is listed as a .5 inch load at 100 meters.
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  8. #128
    Boolit Mold
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    Hi everyone, hope it's not a problem to revive this thread.

    I was having what seemed to be an inconsistent burn with Lee C309-200-R cast bullets and 33.4 grains of VVN140 in .30-06. I didn't think that the airspace was excessive but I tried some dacron filler anyway and that seems to have sorted the problem right out. It's a super accurate load now. I just have two concerns.

    1. I keep hearing about rings in the barrel. I am using just enough dacron to take up the airspace with a little compression by the bullet is this something I need to be worried about or is it only an issue if you use too much?

    2. When I shoot rounds with filler small amounts of dacron gather on the grass and if I shoot enough it looks like I've blown up a stuffed toy. Does anyone know of a biodegradable alternative that would work in .30-06? No one has commented yet but where I shoot is often quite sensitive about that kind of thing.

  9. #129
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    Sounds like you are on the right track, as long as the Dacron fluff does not get crushed into a wad with airspace before the bullet, it should be good. As you know, use just enough to hold the powder while the Dacron remains fluffy.
    Chill Wills

  10. #130
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    sfwh, kapok may be what you are looking for. Used to be used as stuffing in things.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  11. #131
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    This is amazing thread and I’m greatful for all who shared experience’s. I’m excited to implement what I’ve learned into my loading process

  12. #132
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    I use thin single ply TP, I take a single sheet square and then cut it into 4 equal squares. I then use a small wooden dowel and push down onto charge resting against primer.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by badboyboris View Post
    I use thin single ply TP, I take a single sheet square and then cut it into 4 equal squares. I then use a small wooden dowel and push down onto charge resting against primer.
    That is a "wad" not a filler.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  14. #134
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    Compressing a wad of filler against the powder, leaving an airspace between the packed wad of filler is usually the reason for 'ringing' a chamber in the neck area. The ringing of the chamber normally happens where the base of the bullet ends in the case neck. Theory is that the base of the bullet acts as an obstruction to the pressure created due the wad confining the powder charge and the air compressing over the filler wad. Filler that holds the powder charge loosely, or fills the case to the base of the bullet (corn meal,unpacked dacron,shot buffer) avoid this.

  15. #135
    Boolit Bub
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    Would using filler be appropriate in reducing powder charges in milsurp ammo? Such as dropping from 49 grains of flake powder in 8x57 down to 35 grains? I would like to try this load, as another poster showed decent accuracy with this, but don't know if Dacron should be used or not.

  16. #136
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    I honestly don't know because I've not used any filler with jacketed bullets. I have read where some have, and the caution was to be sure the dacron was indeed a "filler" filling the airspace completely. They all recommended stuffing plenty of dacron in. But again, I've not tried it so can't recommend it one way or the other.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  17. #137
    Boolit Bub
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    Thank you. I think I will try without. It's just range ammo.

  18. #138
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    It has been suggested that the compression of the filler going through the neck of a case can potentially cause a ringed chamber. And that makes sense to me; especially with a fast-burning powder. With a straight walled case, there should not be a bottle neck and the abnormal pressure peak, and a ringed chamber should not occur. Does anyone have knowledge of a ringed chamber, using a filler, in a straight walled case? Just curious.

    Edit: I think I have found the answer to my question. I found a reference that stated: "Ed Harris had seen numerous ringed chambers while working at Ruger. They were reportedly from the use of fillers. They included the use of both necked cartridges and straight walled cartridges." So much for my original line of thinking.
    Last edited by Pirate69; 02-01-2024 at 08:05 AM.

  19. #139
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jss227 View Post
    Would using filler be appropriate in reducing powder charges in milsurp ammo? Such as dropping from 49 grains of flake powder in 8x57 down to 35 grains? I would like to try this load, as another poster showed decent accuracy with this, but don't know if Dacron should be used or not.
    I don't know whether I am doing the right thing or not but I use 35gr of H4895 and use a tiny amount of dacron just to hold the powder to the rear of the case for consistent ignition. I reason that it would be no different to shooting uphill with a reduced charge and no dacron. So for me, it's a positioner and no more. I use about 1/2 grain fluffed up. Accuracy seems good with my load which is 35gr H4895
    under a 110gr .312 bullet in a 303 brit two-groove. The same load also seems accurate in another two-groove with open sights. Well, tube sights - can't see the front post too well anymore.

    I have tried stuffing the case with dacron for cast or paper patched boolits but didn't form any conclusions. It worked fine and as intended, that being to protect the boolit base from powder kernel peening.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 02-01-2024 at 02:52 AM.
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  20. #140
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics View Post
    I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

    1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

    2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

    3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?
    I realize of course this post I am responding to is from April '21 but someone might be interested.

    I've found one of two things happening to the Dacron. It either blows out as fluff or it melts into a little spherical bead. I do not recall the conditions that produced each result. I used to test fire loads into a catch device and that's how I found those two results. I've never had any polimer residue in the bore.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check