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Thread: The proper use of fillers

  1. #81
    Boolit Buddy
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    Nice job - thanks!

  2. #82
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    Pirate69 did an excellent job of "charting" how/when to use the Dacron filler. Used as a guideline it should prove very useful. Kudos to him.

    Larry Gibson

  3. #83
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    Ok, gotta ask. It is my understanding that kapok was the same thing as the fiber from the cattail plant when it is ready to seed (float off in the air to make more cattails). If the seed was cut from the "floaty stuff" could it be used in lieu of kapok? This may be a silly question but I really would like to know. if so, it could be used in an emergency in lieu of Dacron. of course you would have to figure out what you want to call the "emergency", plus cut the seeds off of the fluff.
    goofy
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  4. #84
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    Larry you may be able to help with this, I'm going to try some Speer plinker in my '06. I believe I will load these to near normal load levels starting at @ 50gr of 4831 or maybe even 4350. Do you think these powders are too slow for this weight of bullet and , would a small Dacron filler be wise since I'm @ 95% case capacity? Thanks

  5. #85
    Boolit Master Yodogsandman's Avatar
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    The chart and note in post #80 will get a spot in my notebook. Good job, thanks to both Larry Gibson and Pirate69!

  6. #86
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goofyoldfart View Post
    Ok, gotta ask. It is my understanding that kapok was the same thing as the fiber from the cattail plant when it is ready to seed (float off in the air to make more cattails). If the seed was cut from the "floaty stuff" could it be used in lieu of kapok? This may be a silly question but I really would like to know. if so, it could be used in an emergency in lieu of Dacron. of course you would have to figure out what you want to call the "emergency", plus cut the seeds off of the fluff.
    goofy
    Ok, kopoc comes from the kapoc tree and is the fibre inside the seed pod. I can remember fluffing the fibre off a cattail but I can't remember quite what is was like. Just remember that both kapoc and cattail fluff are very flammable. Maybe kapoc burns up inside the barrel. Will cattail fibre burn up inside the barrel or start fires?
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jedomejd View Post
    Larry you may be able to help with this, I'm going to try some Speer plinker in my '06. I believe I will load these to near normal load levels starting at @ 50gr of 4831 or maybe even 4350. Do you think these powders are too slow for this weight of bullet and , would a small Dacron filler be wise since I'm @ 95% case capacity? Thanks
    This was a serious question and deserves an answer. It is a bit of thread drift except for asking about the filler.

    I do not recommend fillers with any jacketed bullet as the force required to engrave the bullet into the lands is substantially greater than with cast bullets. Thus with faster burning powders, even when load density is less than 80%, will ignite and burn efficiently. The trick is to simply select a powder that ignites, burns efficiently and gives optimum performance with the jacketed bullet weight used.

    Both 4350 and 4831 are way too slow burning to ignite and burn efficiently under a Speer 100 gr Plinker. That bullet just does not have the mass for those two powders in the '06. The "faster" medium burning powders such as H322, RL7, 3031 and H4895 would be the "slowest" burning powders I would use. I have shot a lot of the Speer and Hornady 100 gr HJ in 10" twist .308Ws and several '06s in the past and found that while manuals show velocities of 3000+ fps best accuracy from the 10" twist '06 is generally in the 2800 - 3000 fps range. Either bullet is just plain deadly in that range.

    I found powders such as 4227, 4198, 5744 and 4759 to give optimum performance and accuracy in the 2400 - 2700 fps range, are very pleasant to shoot and are deadly on squirrels, rock chucks and coyotes.

    For a casual plinking load on shorter ranges of 100 - 200 yards 14 - 16 gr Unique works very well in the '06 and gives 30 Carbine level of performance.

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-06-2015 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #88
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    Thanks for the input Larry, I felt that the two powders I have on hand were on the slow side for that weight. Guess who's getting more powder? Yep, me.

  9. #89
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    Had to register finally after reading through this thread. Great info, and thank you everyone for sharing.

    So here is my question regarding fillers (being more or less a beginner here). I am interested in working up some reduced loads for my 308 Ruger Scout, 18"barrel. Basically for cost saving, plinking and getting kids introduced slowly to more recoil.

    I purchased some poly/dacron fibers and am trying to determine if this is the proper approach to take:
    135 grain cast, no GC (purchased from badman bullets if that helps)
    700-X, starting at 8 grains and work down to 5?
    Non magnum Winchester primers
    Non reamed flash hole
    Dacron filler as these would go hunting and could be shot at various angles

    I believe, based on the chart provided on the last page, a filler is advisable, but my understanding of 700x I'd it is a fast burning pistol powder, so maybe not needed?

    I just want these to be safe, low recoil, low noise loads. For now, accuracy beyond 50 yards isn't a big concern.

    Thank you for any assistance.

  10. #90
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    I have been using Puff-Lon in reduced black powder and smokeless loads to fill extra space...excellent accuracy and no problems. Few years back I was trying out a light 260gr. cast bullet using IMR4227 in an Axtell 77" Sharps in .40-70 2 1/2" straight. I had rolled out a long cigar shaped piece of Kapok..about 5grs. & had lightly stuffed this into case letting bullet with fiber wad at base fully seat filler as bullet was seated. I fired a couple of rounds and as these were very light start loads..impact was low on backer. I was checking bore after each shot & after 3rd. shot, I checked bore..and it was black..blowing thru didn't help..I thought this odd as recoil felt the same as first two. Inserted rod into muzzle for what I believed to be a stuck bullet..what came out of breech looked for all the world like a felt shotgun wad! The fiberwad was on top & kapok was compressed into a .40 wad 3/8" thick. A careful check of chamber & bore showed no damage..but how in the heck did that bullet leave bore..leaving behind wad & kapok? I tore down rest of loads and haven't used that combination again..though I do continue to use Kapok ..but not with extra light for caliber bullets and fast powders.

  11. #91
    Boolit Master 1johnlb's Avatar
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    I've never used 700x, but it's faster than titegroup and I wouldn't dare use dacron or another filler with that fast of powder. Beside with titegroup and probably 700x to , there's no need.
    I've been using dacron for about a year now and the fastest powder I've used it with is 4227 imr, in the 308. There been no need for it with faster. powder.
    It shines using typical for caliber powders at reduced loads. Like imr4895, 4064 speed of powders in 308, but has worked for me with the imr4227 to reduce vertical stringing with in the groups. It promotes more complete and consistent burning and probably not needed and could be dangerous with the 700x. Just my 02

  12. #92
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1johnlb View Post
    I've never used 700x, but it's faster than titegroup and I wouldn't dare use dacron or another filler with that fast of powder. Beside with titegroup and probably 700x to , there's no need.
    I've been using dacron for about a year now and the fastest powder I've used it with is 4227 imr, in the 308. There been no need for it with faster. powder.
    It shines using typical for caliber powders at reduced loads. Like imr4895, 4064 speed of powders in 308, but has worked for me with the imr4227 to reduce vertical stringing with in the groups. It promotes more complete and consistent burning and probably not needed and could be dangerous with the 700x. Just my 02
    Your 02 is much appreciated.
    I debated posting my question here vs the "Mouse Farts" sticky, and maybe I picked the wrong thread? After reading your comment, I began questioning what I had been reading about MF loads, so I reread that thread, but am still not sure on Dacron need, or for that matter, the starting load grains.
    On the MF thread, they use approx 2-6 grains of Bullseye, and near as I can tell, they don't use a filler. Yet on this thread,a filler seems to be highly suggested especially in cases where potential for varying shooting angles, low volume in case, etc. In reading again, it does seem like 8 grains of 700x may be a bit high for starting, and may drop that to 6....? Still unsure of needed for filler, but am leaning towards using Dacron as indicated in this thread... Now if I could just find some bullseye somewhere, at least I wouldn't have to guess on the 700x!
    With a foot of snow coming to the black hills this weekend, I may just have time to work up a few different loads to try out.

  13. #93
    Boolit Master 1johnlb's Avatar
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    Start a new thread with something like , 700x and dacron is it needed? I'm sure you'll get all the help you need that way.

    I use 5 grs of titegroup with my mf loads, at 8grs it's reaching a pressure point I don't care to go any higher. I'm guessing 700x is probably just as bad. Fast pistol powder has very little if any powder position side effects. At least that you would notice, plinking. And it has the life changing effect from the possible double charge and explosion.

    The main guideline I got when reading the dacron thread was that dacrons main use was with typical powder for cartridge, that means if you can look in a printed manual at you chamber and it list the powder your using that's the powder for reduced charge dacron. It holds the powder back for a complete burn. If it were me I would only use the dacron with 4227 or slower powder and then only if needed For accuracy,.

  14. #94
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1johnlb View Post
    . Fast pistol powder has very little if any powder position side effects.

    The main guideline I got when reading the dacron thread was that dacrons main use was with typical powder for cartridge, that means if you can look in a printed manual at you chamber and it list the powder your using that's the powder for reduced charge dacron. It holds the powder back for a complete burn,.
    These are the key points I wasn't grasping before. Can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    I am thinking of trying a filler in my 243. Using 17gr 4227. So I tested putting 1gr of the polyfill in and then shook it around and such. Then pulled it out and got this

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Two questions:

    Is the little bit of powder that got in the fiber ok? 4227 is pretty small and I've only used filler with stick type powders.

    Second question, has been asked but never answered, does the polyfill do anything to velocity other than keep it more consistent? I ask because 17 grains has given me the best group so far and I'm wondering if I need to try the filler with a lighter, heavier, or the same charge. Of course, I know no one can guarantee what the accuracy will be and testing will be in order. But maybe someone can give some insight.

    Thanks

  16. #96
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    newton, IMO the very little bit of migration you show is not detrimental but my use of dacron is usually not with powder that fine and if so I'm careful with my box of ammo. With a powder like 4759 I've used my inertial puller, which creates quite a bit of force, and found very little migration at all. That would change pending how dense your filler is. I try to keep mine minimal, just enough to fill the void but enough not to leave air space over the powder, between the charge.

    As to your question "does the polyfill do anything to velocity", I can only speak to dacron and my use. I've recorded anywhere from increases of 35fps to 110fps. Usually on the higher end. I do not use dacron in my older softer steel rifles, i.e., those marked Black Powder. All of my experience is in the lower velocity ranges around 1250-1500fps and I'm generally in straight walls - occasionally in the 35REM, 30-30 and 32 Special.
    Best Regards,
    John

  17. #97
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Thanks. I might try with a bit more to see if its not just because there is too little filler in there.

  18. #98
    Boolit Master Yodogsandman's Avatar
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    Some grains of powder are just bound to be pulled out with the Dacron filler. It should fill all the space between the top of the powder charge and the base of the seated boolit. I just fill the case up till the Dacron is filling the case neck and then seat the boolit. Good job pulling the fibers apart to fluff them up, adding to the volume.

    I only use Dacron when my groups show a vertical group, indicating that the powder is burning with inconsistent velocities. Adding Dacron filler will fix that and tighten up those groups. Be aware that using Dacron filler might boost pressures and your load should be dropped at least by a grain and then worked up again carefully.

  19. #99
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    I used to fluff up pillow stuffing but recently started to buy sheets or flat bats - cut those into strips, usually about 3/4 wide. Determined size by wieghing. Then I cut that strip to the length of the air gap as measured from the powder column less the seating depth of the bullet. I roll it like cigarette paper into a column shape and poke into case. Sort of like is done here, only usually a little faster.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD-n6C6pizI
    Best Regards,
    John

  20. #100
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    This is not unusual... and I often get as much improvment when there is no stringing, just smaller groups.

    I'll be the first to admit I've seen mixed results. In other words with some loads it works out that groups can open up.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Best Regards,
    John

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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GC Gas Check