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Thread: The proper use of fillers

  1. #61
    Boolit Master

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    Nevermind. I'm an idiot. thanks for a very informative thread!

  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    A similar filler to Dacron is wool. The great thing about is it burns away and it stinks!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  3. #63
    Boolit Grand Master


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    And if the grass out front is dry it starts fires too! Ruined a good pair of sneakers stomping out a couple fires using wool! Was back in the day at the original La Grande, Oregon rifle and pistol club up on the Grande Ronde River. Was 2 benches out to the left of the covered firing line. They hadn't mowed the grass out front yet and one fine July day I started two fires.....I was a slow learner back then..........

    But that was with the dry pure white processed wool. Guess the fresh stuff off the sheep is oily and doesn't start fires and just stinks? Anyways I switched back to Dacron and didn't start anymore fires.

    Larry Gibson

  4. #64
    Boolit Master
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    I wonder what happens to the (approx.) 1 grain of dacron batting I'm using in my A2230 trials. I'm guessing that considering the pressure and heat of firing it just is consumed along with the powder charge. ?

  5. #65
    Boolit Buddy
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    I ran some loads thru my 1917 with dacron. Forty rounds of 20 and 21 gr. 4198 and .4gr pulled tuffs under a 208 gr. boolit. There was no trace anywhere in front of the bench.

  6. #66
    Boolit Master pjames32's Avatar
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    Great thread! Thanks for all the info.
    PJ

  7. #67
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHeatermk3 View Post
    I wonder what happens to the (approx.) 1 grain of dacron batting I'm using in my A2230 trials. I'm guessing that considering the pressure and heat of firing it just is consumed along with the powder charge. ?
    It either blows out as fine fluff or melts into a little spherical bead. It depends on the load. I have recovered both.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  8. #68
    Boolit Mold
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    Do I need to use filler for blue dot and 405 gr. non gas ch. Lazercast in 45-70 marlin lever with microgroove barrel?
    Thanks,

  9. #69
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I wouldn't.

    Larry Gibson

  10. #70
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks Larry.

  11. #71
    On Heaven's Range

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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    It either blows out as fine fluff or melts into a little spherical bead. It depends on the load. I have recovered both.
    On many occasions, when shooting with other bullet-casters, I've seen tufts of dacron wafting away on the breeze. Also the carpeted benchrest in my shooting van often showed little bits of UNMELTED dacron littering its surface.... the strands appeared to be broken into short lengths.

    The only time I saw the "spherical bead" of melted dacron was on an occasion when I somehow omitted the powder charge in a rifle cartridge.

    Primer heat alone melted the dacron into a ball, and the bullet didn't move. There was still enough pressure in the case that there was an audible "poof" when I pulled the bullet several days after trying to fire the round. Interesting.
    Regards from BruceB in Nevada

    "The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen

  12. #72
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    That would explain why I found the melted Dacron beads so often - very light loads. Interesting indeed.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    I don’t have a lot of experience with fillers but the fairly authoritative claims of ringed chambers IS scary. If you get on the right thread (or wrong one pending what you want you hope for) you can find plenty of first-hand claims of ringed chambers but I know a fellah who has about 60-90 rifles and he has not bought a bullet in 30 years - and he’s never seen one. He uses filler for a lot of loads though I’ve never asked him to quantify for how many or for which calibers.

    Based on his experience and advice when I’ve used them Dacron Filler does not scare me so much – that is till I get to the old rifles. Then the cost of those old guns puts me to worrying. This post is one that gives me greatest pause:

    "In the book, The Modern Schuetzen Rifle – Second Edition (Copyright 1999) by
    Charles E. Dell and Wayne Schwartz, Charles Dell devoted a chapter to his
    chamber ringing experiments. Using smokeless powder, he was successful in
    repeatedly ringing chambers with reduced powder loads with gaps between the
    over-powder wad and bullet base. By holding and firing the rifle vertically to
    create the gap, he was also able to produce chamber rings with reduced smokeless
    powder loads without using an over-powder wad. In a later chapter on black
    powder cartridge shooting Charlie discusses his failed attempts to ring a chamber
    with reduced black powder loads using the same experimental techniques. He
    wrote, “To date I cannot find any tendency at all indicating a ringing force strong
    enough to damage a barrel when using fixed ammunition loaded with FFg black
    powder when a gap exists between the bullet base and over powder wad.” By the
    way, ringing is a cumulative effect and many shots are normally required before a
    ring becomes apparent. The ring may go unnoticed until case extraction becomes
    a problem".
    http://www.texas-mac.com/Shooting_Sh...and_Facts.html

    So, here I am trying Dacron filler out in a few cartridges and finding good results with accuracy but particularly with regulating velocity. So far I’m a believer in the efficacy of fillers.

    Back to the old guns - yesterday I took the Marlin Ballard in 40-63 and shot about a hundred rounds in it with loads I’ve shot before and I watched velocities carefully. Since I’m committing the sin of shooting smokeless I approach loading careful and watch velocities like a hawk, and of course I made my powder choice carefully. After reading Sherman Bell I tried three powders but settled on IMR-4198, since it had the gentlest pressure spike that best replicated BP (at least according to his strain gauges) and since it produced less ES than did the 4759 and IMR 4227 I initially tested.

    This outing I noted that I was getting more spikes in velocity than I was last outing. I started to wonder about how I was doing things. Last time I remained sitting, while this time I got up after each shot to read a borrowed chronograph (normally my display is remote), and then loaded while standing. So, getting up changed the way I handled the cartridges. I started watching the orientation of the case as I inserted the round and noted that while last time I approached the chamber bullet up, leveling off as I inserted it, this time it was with bullet down, then leveling off with the rifle tipped muzzle down a few inches to close the lever. I wondered if velocity spikes (ES) were coming when powder was oriented to the rear. Made sense, especially considering my velocities were generally lower than last outing. I started chambering a little more intentionally and noting correlation.

    Here is a sample of a 15rd string. Arrows are best I could record though I wish now I’d have been even more careful.
    1290 ^ (rear)
    1306 ^
    1162 > (level but favoring a forward slope to the base of the bullet)
    1187 >
    1194 >
    1151 >
    1157 >
    1193 >
    1222 ^
    1170 >
    1181 >
    1152 >
    1133 >
    1134 >
    1163 >

    There are a couple things I note here. First, when I’ve used Dacron in the past I get higher velocities with like charges. I’ve recorded about 100fps increase at times. So, when I look at this string it makes me wonder, do I really, or do I just produce velocities that (whatever) charge would produce if all the cases had the powder against the primer? Second, it makes me wonder about average velocities I’ve been recording. There are three averages here really. One is the aggregate of all fifteen rounds (1186fps). Another is the average of three charges oriented to the rear (1273fps) and the third could be an average of the twelve where powder mostly laid level in the bottom of the case, perhaps tipped forward more than rearward (1164fps). Note that the difference between the level and the rear oriented charges is about 100fps, what I’ve seen in other shoot-offs between filler and non-filler loads.

    Btw, I know ‘tipping the muzzle up’ is a solution I could use but it sure makes me wish I could use filler here without risk of reaming the chamber of a valuable old gun. I’ve used an inertia puller to remove bullets and if done right, a loose Dacron filler just doesn’t let that stuff migrate, so relying on Dacron over my consistently pointing a muzzle skyward before touching off a round sure would be preferable to me.

    I’d be real interested in what some of the other more experienced loaders here think of the risk of ringing a chamber in an old rifle would be if I backed off a grain and filled the space between bullet and powder with a fluffed Dacron fill.

    Sherman Bell did do a test with fillers but personally I was not convinced with his effort debunk the myth due to his sample size. Especially IF ringing is an accumulative effect.

    Thoughts anyone?
    Best Regards,
    John

  14. #74
    Boolit Grand Master


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    John

    Dell's work is interesting and informative. However he does several things to set up for ringing. Those are all listed by him as to the method of his testing. Purposefully choosing components and specifically powders to use in some cases to induce ringing is not something I do. There have been numerous barrels over the years ruined by ringing, no doubt about it. Most often when that happens we find the use of powders is more governed by "I wanted to use this powder up because I have it"...."It seemed like it should work".....or some other reason. Seldom have we found actual cases of ringing that did not involve a wad or filler with recommended powders by competent authorities.

    Let me reiterate there is a difference between a "wad" and a "filler" as used in the context of reduced loads with cast bullets:

    A wad leaves and air space between the wad and the base of the bullet or between the powder and the wad. There are many proven and documented instances of "ringing" involving the use of wads with fast, medium and even slower burning powders. I do not recommend the use of a wad under any circumstance.

    A filler fills the airspace between the powder and the base of the cast bullet. The filler reduces case capacity and increases pressures and thus velocity because it promotes consistent ignition and uniform powder burning. There are numerous materials used for fillers. I have pressure tested numerous of them and the only really satisfactory filler material I use and recommend is a Dacron filler. I have pressure tested many loads in different cartridges using a Dacron filler and have yet to find anything resembling a "pressure spike" that may cause a "ring".

    The use of the Dacron filler should be of good benefit with the IMR 4198 powder you are using in the 40-63 Ballard IF you are using medium to heavy for cartridge bullets in it. With light for cartridge bullets I would recommend a faster burning powder with no filler or wad. Using reduced loads in many cartridges with out any problems demands a bit of common sense, especially when faster burning powders are used under heavy for cartridge bullets in large capacity straight walled cases. Yours are common sense loads and you should find success with that combination.

    Larry Gibson

  15. #75
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    Very much appreciate your consideration and input Larry.

    I’ve been casting three bullets, a 300gr, 330gr(both grease groove and PP), and 350gr gas checked bullet. Had a chance at those three molds and was glad to get them. I think I’ve read where some folks are shooting 420gr for long range but most recommendations over on ASSRA have been in the 330-370 range for the 40-63. I don’t plan on going beyond that 370gr recommendation and will eventually get Tom at Accurate to make me something closer to 350.

    I’m not sure whether my lightest, the 300gr, would be considered light or medium?

    While I don’t use any over-powder wads I do use Walters Wads - seated by the bullet & ‘tight in the case’, so no space.
    I use them to protect the base since the chamber won’t accommodate an oversize bullet. I have to inside neck-ream at that just to accommodate a groove size.

    Thanks again, was really hoping you’d offer your thoughts.
    Best Regards,
    John

  16. #76
    Boolit Man
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    I may have missed information on the thread pertaining to the following:

    I am shooting a .308 Winchester (Savage Axis) using 21 Gr. SR 4759 with Lyman 311041 (173 Gr. GC, CO WW and 2% Tin added) and LC 03 Cases. Would it be advisable to use Dacron Filler with the mentioned components?

    All comments will be appreciated.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56950
    My feedback !

  17. #77
    Boolit Grand Master


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    John

    Considering the 40 caliber I'd say the 300 gr was at the low end of "medium weight" bullets for the purposes of this discussion regarding filler use.

    Larry Gibson

  18. #78
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by azshtr View Post
    I may have missed information on the thread pertaining to the following:

    I am shooting a .308 Winchester (Savage Axis) using 21 Gr. SR 4759 with Lyman 311041 (173 Gr. GC, CO WW and 2% Tin added) and LC 03 Cases. Would it be advisable to use Dacron Filler with the mentioned components?

    All comments will be appreciated.
    Depends on what kind of "shooting" you are doing. At 21 gr 4759 in the .308W you have 58 - 60% load density. With the 173 gr cast bullet you have sufficient mass with that load density that for normal shooting a filler probably isn't going to be that beneficial if at all. This is especially the case if bench shooting or shooting standing out to probably 200 yards. Doing so usually results fairly consistent loading so powder positioning probably isn't going to be a problem. However, if shooting for best accuracy then you may want to test with and w/o the Dacron filler. Also in field shooting (hunting) if shooting up or down at over 30 degree angles I would use the filler.

    Larry Gibson

  19. #79
    Boolit Man
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    "Larry"

    Thanks for the response.

    I did forgot to mention that shooting would be from a bench or prone position, which you addressed. I will do as suggested and test with and without the Dacron filler and see if results improve with the Dacron. Wife is a quilter so I have an abundance of both batting and the fluffy stuff available.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56950
    My feedback !

  20. #80
    Boolit Master

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    My understanding of filler use guidelines

    After reading Larry's post, I decided to attempt to put his advice in a easy reference table. The table below is my attempt in doing so. I ran the table by Larry for his comments and the Note#1 below was added. Hope this is helpful.


    Case Powder Bullet Wt Load Density
    30-30 thru 30-06

    See Note #1 below
    Appropriate load of:
    4227
    4759
    5744
    4198
    Or any powder within
    this burn range.
    140-165 grains Always use filler
    30-30 thru 30-06 Appropriate load of:
    RL7
    3031
    4895
    RL19
    AA4350
    H4831SC
    RL22
    3100
    Or any powder within
    this burn range.
    170 grain thru
    220 plus grain.
    If less than or equal to 80%
    load density, use a filler.
    30-30 thru 30-06 Appropriate per
    published
    loading data
    Appropriate per
    published
    loading data
    If greater than 80% load
    density, no filler required.


    Note #1. That is a good chart except there is a gray area with the faster burning powders. That area is when top end max loads of those powders (2400, 4227, 4759, 4198, etc.) are used with rifles having slower than 10" twist barrels, the 30-30 in a M94 with 12" twist or a 12' twist .308W are good examples. About half the time the filler doesn't provide any benefit as the powder ignites and burns efficiently under normal shooting conditions. Only when shooting at extreme angles with those loads does the Dacron filler provide any benefit.



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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check