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Thread: The proper use of fillers

  1. #41
    Boolit Master Digger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    FYI

    Was in WalMart today and saw they had Dacron batting in the sewing/fabric section; Had bags from less than $5 (shown) to $18.

    Larry Gibson

    Attachment 72511
    Okay Larry ... I can blame this moment on you and the others here .....
    Was in the check out line at Wally world with a bag of filler (one of the bags in your pic ) and a six pack of beer in the other ....
    Behind me was a small blonde Julianne Hough look a- like with a tight t shirt and short (did I say short ?) cut off jean shorts looking at me with the strangest face trying to figure me out ... with a bag of filler in one hand a sixer of beer in the other? ......
    I could read her mind ..... is he straight or is he .....?

  2. #42
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    Yeah, I understand........was in the candle making section of a local hobby store a few days ago........very good looking young lady came up and asked if she could help me find something. I responded with microcrystalline wax. I got the weird look and then she asked what kind of candles did I make......I started to tell her the truth.......that I was going to mix it with alox to then mix with beeswax for some NRA 50/50 bullet lube but thought better of it because she picked up a large tall candle in a fondling way and mentioned that "microcrystalline wax is a hardener after all".......totally lost my train of thought...........

    Larry Gibson

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Yeah, I understand........was in the candle making section of a local hobby store a few days ago........very good looking young lady came up and asked if she could help me find something. I responded with microcrystalline wax. I got the weird look and then she asked what kind of candles did I make......I started to tell her the truth.......that I was going to mix it with alox to then mix with beeswax for some NRA 50/50 bullet lube but thought better of it because she picked up a large tall candle in a fondling way and mentioned that "microcrystalline wax is a hardener after all".......totally lost my train of thought...........

    Larry Gibson
    Larry

    If you go here: http://www.shopblendedwaxes.com/Microcrystalline-Wax/

    They have what you seek and no danger of getting sidetracked, prosecuted or slapped.

    The higher the melt point the stiffer/less flexible the wax is.

  4. #44
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    Appreciate that but a 10 lb slab at $40 + shipping is a bit more quantity and $s wise than I need. Saw that add plus several others on the internet. Most need a bulk order to make the shipping palatable. For the quantity of alox I have (19 oz's) only 1.3 oz's of microcrystalline wax is needed. A couple of the outfits sell small 1/4 lb baggies of cubes for around $4. That's plenty but the shipping & handling again make it prohibitive. I'm RVing it around the west for the next couple months so I'll hit candle shops and hobby shops along the way and should find some. I've shot a lot of cast bullets in the last 40+ years and have used commercial lubes for the most part. I learned a long time ago that the sum of the ingredients in small quantities is almost always more $s than if just buying a good commercial lube to begin with.

    Thus is the case now; I have 19 oz of alox, the equivalent of beeswax and if I order the microcrystalline wax at $0 + S&H I will have $85 into the equivalent home made amount of 25 sticks of Lars 50/50. Doing the math we quickly see that for all the fun, excitement and self satisfaction of making a lube I hope works I could have the same amount of $s into what Lars 50/50 or 2500+ would have cost and I know it works.............so, if in my travels, I can pick up a 1/4 lb baggie of microcrystalline wax along the way it might make the hassle of making my own "worth it". If it works great, if it doesn't I throw it away and am not out that much.

    Don't get me wrong, I do make my own BP lube out of Beeswax and olive oil and it works fine. It even works with smokeless loads just fine upwards of 1600+ fps. Some like to make their own lube as evidenced by the sub forum threads on that topic. My experience is it's a lot easier to buy a known lube that works vs making up a concoction that may or may not work. For those that like to make their own lubes I say go for it. Some think I waste my time converting Berdan primed cases to boxer primed......to each his own.......thanks again for the heads up on the site anyway, I do appreciate it.

    Larry Gibson

  5. #45
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    Larry- pop me your addy and I will send you what you need (gratis) - I have both the 430(140deg) and the 429(165deg) versions on site.....I believe you would want the 165deg version, but that is me assuming...so lemme know eh.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Am starting to play around with this Dacron filler material but don't understand something real basic sounding to everyone but me apparently. I weigh out 3/4 grains of dacron filler and it has alot of airspace in between the fibers when I put it into the case. Even with 1-1/2 grains, there is still airspace between the fibers. then I understand you are not supposed to make a "wad". If I were to make a "wad" with Dacron, I would probably have mre than 3 or 4 grains of Dacron in there (more probably). I still see air between the fibers is what I'm saying and not understanding how this is supposed to look once I put it in on top of the powder. Any explanations would be appreciated. Thanks!

  7. #47
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    Newtire

    There is supposed to be air space between the Dacron fibers. It is supposed to be fluffy when filling the airspace between powder and bullet. It is not supposed to be compacted into a solid mass as in "wad". As long as the 3/4 gr Dacron filler fluffs up in the case it will hold the powder back (position it). Unless you are using a really fine ball type powder the powder will not migrate. Use just enough Dacron to fill the case between powder and bullet when the Dacron is in it's expanded/fluffed state.

    What cartridge and charge of what powder are you using?

    Larry Gibson

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Newtire

    There is supposed to be air space between the Dacron fibers. It is supposed to be fluffy when filling the airspace between powder and bullet. It is not supposed to be compacted into a solid mass as in "wad". As long as the 3/4 gr Dacron filler fluffs up in the case it will hold the powder back (position it). Unless you are using a really fine ball type powder the powder will not migrate. Use just enough Dacron to fill the case between powder and bullet when the Dacron is in it's expanded/fluffed state.

    What cartridge and charge of what powder are you using?

    Larry Gibson
    Thanks Larry for the help. I am using SR4759 and 2400 in the 6.5-06. I haven't used any filler with the 2400 but have tried it with the SR4759. I also wanted to give RX-7 a go.

  9. #49
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    Larry, adding filler, say 3/4-1 gr of dacron. How much does this increase the pressure? Or, does it act like adding ?????? grs. of powder?

  10. #50
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    I have use Super Grex shotshell buffer as a filler.It seemed to work fine with reduced loads of medium burning powder.
    A friend of mine who has passed on now used a 1/4 sheet of toilet paper to hold the powder in the case.

  11. #51
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    Where was that store Larry?

  12. #52
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    I don't use fill for powders faster than 2400 with the rare exception of just a very little bit to hold the powder against the base for squib/mousefart loads. I do not use cut squares without pulling them apart for "fluffy" inserting into the case. I used to use just the cut squares, but then I pushed one down a glass vial to see what I would see. Most of the time there was a complete fill all around the vial, but once in awhile, I would notice just a little bit of space that would have allowed some powder to flow forward and above the fill. So, I still cut the squares, but I pull them apart and fluff them. Just my opinion.
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  13. #53
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    In years past, we had a lively discussion on the subject of fillers. I like to refer to those discussions as the "Filler Wars". This seems to have calmed down in recent years, with the departure of most of the warriors. Here is my "take away" from all of that;

    1. There are many folks who feel that Dacron tuffs is the way to go. Larry has done an excellent job of telling you how he does it and how it has worked well for him. I would that to be the definitive post on the use of Dacron fillers.

    2. Then there are the anti-Dacron tuff crowd, who can point to example of ringed chambers that result from the use of Dacron tuff and all sorts of explanations why this is or is not so. There have been some very credible folks on both sides of the Dacron debate.

    3. I truly don't know about Dacron because I have never used it. I have not wanted to take the chance of ruining a good barrel just in case the anti-Dacron crowd had it right. So, I take no position on the use of Dacron tuffs as a filler.

    4. There are folks who use organic fillers like corn meal, cream of wheat, coffee and so forth. I shy away from this stuff as it has been known to take on moisture and either expand and shove the bullet up in the case neck or harden into a cake if the ammo is not fired right away. If the organic filler is used in a bottle neck case and does harden into a cake, some real pressure spikes are very likely to occur.

    5. The use of any type of wad that leaves air space between it and the bullet has the potential to act like a piston and compress the air under the bullet with the possibility of damaging the chamber.

    6. I do use shot shell buffer as a filler in some cases. If the case is 60% filled with powder and the buffer is added on top this works well for me. I mostly use it with large charges of WC872. To keep the buffer from mixing with the powder, you should have lightly compress charge of powder and the buffer compressed with the bullet to keep everything in place.

    7. I have been able to shoot cast bullets with satisfactory accuracy without the use of a filler the vast majority of the time. So, I just sort of back away from fillers. Maybe I will be more adventuresome in the future and give Dacron a try, or maybe not.

    Best of luck to you all, fillerist and non-fillerist alike.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  14. #54
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    I've always been leery of Dacron as well, and don't like a mass of solids like Cream of Wheat between powder and boolit. I use a tuft of Kapok to hold the powder back. The stuff is some sort of cellulosic material, finer than cotton, and a pinch of it bulks up enough to hold the powder in the rear of the shell, if you don't shake it hard. The fibers seem to burn completely when the powder burns, so there should be nothing to ring a chamber or barrel. I've never seen a trace of it after shooting, and no problems with rung barrels.

    The only downside is it isn't easily found. The best way is to wait for someone to throw away an old chair or couch and then slash the cushions open as it sits on the curb waiting for the trash truck. If the stuffing is a fine yellowish fibrous material, you have enough to last the rest of your life.

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Ok I have a hypothetical question here regarding filler in a Mosin.

    I have a nice pair of Mosin's, both slug .312, with full house loads they were kicking the **** out of my shoulder and about to give me a nasty flinch.

    I'm mostly using IMR4895 in the 25-35 grain range looking for accuracy and getting none. I have some IMR 4350 but it does not seem to like reduced loads.
    Finding suitable powders can be a tricky proposition currently.

    I did recently get my lee .3121852r mold to casting .314 and invested in a second lee sizing die .314 which seems to be throwing a touch small at .3135 (Perfect in my opinion) I'm using good copper gas checks, put them on, size, lube with a Ben's red variant, and resize.

    At around 30 grains of IMR4895 can I use dacron safely? Would another product be safer, less likely to ring a barrel?

    I have read, and reread this sticky and I guess you could say I'm hung on the fence.

    The rounds work as is, no problems, no issues, but not much accuracy either. But I've not yet had a chance to try the new bigger boolits and see if that is going to fix my accuracy problem.

    I'm sitting here looking at 100 once fired cases, resized, primed, and waiting.

    Larry in particular your opinion of what you would do would be most appreciated.

    Thanks for taking the time to read.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    ............At around 30 grains of IMR4895 can I use dacron safely? Would another product be safer, less likely to ring a barrel?

    ...........Larry in particular your opinion of what you would do would be most appreciated..
    I would drop back to 27 gr IMR 4895 and use the Dacron filler (3/4 gr). I would use the larger bullet and work up in 1/2 gr increments to 30 gr. I would test with 10 shot test strings at 100 yards and chronograph each test load. Best accuracy will come in the 1800 - 1950 fps range.

    That's what I have done with that very bullet in my own MNs with very good success with IMR, H and milsurp 4895s.

    Larry Gibson

  17. #57
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    Larry, I applaud your forthcoming and generous nature on this and other topics.
    I have 10 rounds of 7.62x54R on my bench loaded with 30 gr. of 4895, topped with fluffed dacron to the tune of about 1.5 gr. in each case, maybe a little more. The slug is the aforementioned NOE 316299 which weigh just about 220 gr. I notice my dacron weights are a bit higher than some. I'm still a little hesitant to pull the trigger, and I welcome any suggestions. The hesitation is due to any risk that I might mess up a barrel. I would like a little more clarity as to the conditions by which filler can ring a barrel.
    Last edited by Boolseye; 09-18-2014 at 10:07 AM.

  18. #58
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    Boolseye

    Pull the trigger, you won't mess up the barrel. That load is low for that cartridge pressure wise and even that much Dacron will not raise the psi very much. Accuracy may or may not be the best though but you won't mess up the barrel (damage wise). If you are shooting into the wind you may get a little "fluff" back in your face.

    Larry Gibson

  19. #59
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    Much appreciated...exactly what I want to do

    Yup, shot five and they were consistent and accurate.
    Not to mention the smell of burning bedding in the air!
    Likin' it so far.
    Last edited by Boolseye; 09-18-2014 at 04:18 PM.

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Thank you Larry!

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