.458 Win Mag sanity check

[windrider919]

Yes, I too weigh my bullets because consistency = accuracy.

For hand gun shooting I agree with Pdawg_Shooter, 1% is fine. And for general rifle shooting that works too. BUT, for long range tight groups you must also tighten up your standards.

I will cast a LOT more than I expect to use. Like 200 when you need 100. Then, while watching a movie some evening, I set up and weight every bullet. For my 460 gr mould using an alloy of 8lbs WWs, 2lbs pure lead {to drop the antimony percent in the WW}and that strip of tin I mentioned it actually comes out [usually] a max of 466gr. as a perfect fill-out with no voids. Now only maybe 10% weigh that even though I am a very careful caster (Constancy, consistency, etc.). I break them down into 1/2 gr batches and anything under 465 is culled out to be remelted. ( 466, 465.5, 465) And I KEEP them in those weight batches. If a particular weight does not have enough bullets in it to make up a loading batch {50 +} I just 'shelve' it until the next casting session where more of that weight might be made.

I'm using a bottom poor pot because it gives better bullets. I cast HOT because that fills out the huge big bore moulds better, just below the 'frosted' point. This also lets me cast FASTER because I give the mould little time to cool down, just enough to let the bullet metal solidify. I drop my bullets into a bucket of cold water to quench them. If I dropped them on a hard surface, they would squish and distort because they are still not completely hardened. With water quench I get round, un-dinged bullets.

When it comes to the re-loading, for practice I use the lighter bullets. For a match, I use the 466gr ones. Weigh every powder charge too.
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A clarification, when I re-size, only about the top 1/2" of the case is being necked down. This means that with the case un-sized a bullet could be 'carefully' hand seated and single shot, with it sized it just barely can NOT be hand seated so holds the cartridge assembly together for travel and loading - single shot, NOT usable in the magazine.

Sorry guys, I have no solution to the dilemma of - if it is sized enough to take the recoil of the magazine it is too tight for extreme accuracy. It drops down to a 400 yard tight group shooter

[pdawg_shooter]

Cool, thanks pdawg_shooter. So what I'm casting are already within that tolerance range. Most are much closer.

Another question for the experts... I am starting to process my brass from this weekends session. The chamber on my rifle is "generous" to say the least. It is a safari gun, so that is to be expected.

I made up a couple of paper patched bullets to do a checking, and the bullets that mike out at 0.463 - 0.464" after the patches dry are a firm thumb fit into the fired cases. That's good, in that if I don't resize the cases, they will last a lot longer. Just put a slight flare on the case mouth and thumb seat them. I made up a dummy round and it cycles and chambers just fine. The down side is that putting five in the magazine is a non-starter. That is not enough neck tension to hold everything in place under recoil. If I single shot the rifle, it is no big deal. I used a Lee factory crimp die to put a crimp on, but unfortunately the crimp falls on a lube groove. Plus I'm thinking that if I put enough crimp on the case to hold the bullet under recoil it is going to cut the paper patch.

When I cycled the dummy round through the action, I did get a nice mark around the paper on the ogive from the leade. This falls in line with what windrider919 was telling me earlier. I think that I'll adjust the seating depth a little to get the crimp to fall on one of the ridge and see what happens.

Oh man, I'm seeing two new dies and a new bullet mold in my future. A Lee universal de-capper and a Lee universal flare die. Then a mold for something like the "windrider bullet" or equivalent. Anyone got a favorite cast paper patched bullet mold for a 458WM? 400 - 450 grn or so. I'll do some looking for a postell or Lovern that drops about 0.452 with wheel weights.

My best all around 45cal paper patch bullet is a Lyman 451114. Drops at .4515 and 430gr with my chosen alloy. Saves sizing down before patching an is an exultant design bullet.

[offshore44]

Hope my testing works out as good as yours. I have 600 empty cases most new screaming for bullets.

I found that there was a SIGNIFICANT difference between my brand new, shiny Hornady cases, and what came out of the chamber after firing some of the paper patched bullets. There was a significant difference between the new cases and the Hornady sizing die as well. Well, more than I expected anyway. It's fun to learn stuff though!

[offshore44]

My best all around 45cal paper patch bullet is a Lyman 451114. Drops at .4515 and 430gr with my chosen alloy. Saves sizing down before patching an is an exultant design bullet.

Thanks for the suggestion. I gave that a quick look-see pdawg. I'm a little hesitant on it though. The CZ doesn't like to feed anything with a big meplat like that. I learned that lesson with some Oregon Trail cast bullets that I tried out. The trip from the magazine mashes the meplat every time...

[offshore44]

Yes, I too weigh my bullets because consistency = accuracy.

For hand gun shooting I agree with Pdawg_Shooter, 1% is fine. And for general rifle shooting that works too. BUT, for long range tight groups you must also tighten up your standards.

I will cast a LOT more than I expect to use. Like 200 when you need 100. Then, while watching a movie some evening, I set up and weight every bullet. For my 460 gr mould using an alloy of 8lbs WWs, 2lbs pure lead {to drop the antimony percent in the WW}and that strip of tin I mentioned it actually comes out [usually] a max of 466gr. as a perfect fill-out with no voids. Now only maybe 10% weigh that even though I am a very careful caster (Constancy, consistency, etc.). I break them down into 1/2 gr batches and anything under 465 is culled out to be remelted. ( 466, 465.5, 465) And I KEEP them in those weight batches. If a particular weight does not have enough bullets in it to make up a loading batch {50 +} I just 'shelve' it until the next casting session where more of that weight might be made.

I'm using a bottom poor pot because it gives better bullets. I cast HOT because that fills out the huge big bore moulds better, just below the 'frosted' point. This also lets me cast FASTER because I give the mould little time to cool down, just enough to let the bullet metal solidify. I drop my bullets into a bucket of cold water to quench them. If I dropped them on a hard surface, they would squish and distort because they are still not completely hardened. With water quench I get round, un-dinged bullets.

When it comes to the re-loading, for practice I use the lighter bullets. For a match, I use the 466gr ones. Weigh every powder charge too.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A clarification, when I re-size, only about the top 1/2" of the case is being necked down. This means that with the case un-sized a bullet could be 'carefully' hand seated and single shot, with it sized it just barely can NOT be hand seated so holds the cartridge assembly together for travel and loading - single shot, NOT usable in the magazine.

Sorry guys, I have no solution to the dilemma of - if it is sized enough to take the recoil of the magazine it is too tight for extreme accuracy. It drops down to a 400 yard tight group shooter

I agree with "Consistency is accuracy" whole-heartedly!

Hmmm...I wonder if a 458WM die in an arbor press would work for consistency? Of course, then you have to find a bench rest die in 458WM. I'll try out your trick windrider919 and see if I can make it work for me. I would love to have consistent neck tension and size to deal with, plus not overworking my brass. I have a feeling that the sizing die I have is going to be problematic in that respect. What die are you using?

It looks like I am going free range / off roading here with feeding from the magazine.

Every time I get cocky about shooting long distances, I go out to the driveway and look at the house at the end of the road. It's a lazered 330 yards. That usually brings me back to reality pretty quickly. There's house numbers on the front, but I can't read'em. I'm guessing that they are about 4" tall. That's a little over 1 MOA at 300 yards. I can see them , but can't read them...and that tells me something about shooting that far. I'll do 100 yards first and work up from there.

Oh and I got my seating die to work with my paper patched bullets. So I now have either a really nice custom seating die or a really expensive custom paper weight.

[offshore44]

Just a quick note on case sizing...

If I adjust my sizing die ALL the way out, and I mean as far out as it will go, I can size the case to where a 0.459" plug gauge just fits into the case mouth. It looks like the case is being touched by the die about a third of the way down. It's probably not sizing more than the first 3/8" or so. If also adjust the decapping pin ALL the way out the primers are getting punched out. I think that I am going to try this on for size for the next go-around. It's more than windrider919 is sizing, but then I am also trying to get the loaded rounds to survive the recoil in the magazine. I may be able to get about a half to a quarter turn more adjustment out, but then I start running out of thread in the lock ring.

This is a Forster Co-axe press; so this may not work on another, more conventional, press or if there is a shell holder involved. I know if I put the shell holder adapter in there is no way that it will even come close to working.

I tried the "feel" method that you were using windrider919, and realized that I was not going to get the consistency that I was after. I don't have the touch yet. While trying that method out though, I realized that I had a little adjustment left and that I was pretty close to topping the platform out. A little messing about and here we are.

[offshore44]

Whoo-Hoo! I have discovered a source of 16# (15#) bond paper locally! It's cheap and off the shelf to boot! I did some research and discovered that cash register tape / adding machine tape is 16#, and it is readily available locally. The wrapped bullets come out to 0.462" or just a hair under. The patch shrinkage is outstanding...nice and tight and uniform. I do have to adjust my patch length a little because the patches leave a little more gap for a complete double wrap than I would like, but that is trivial.

I made up some dummy rounds with once fired brass and am very excited with the results. I have even eliminated several steps in the reloading process. It is no longer required to re-size the bullets after wrapping to get the correct final diameter. My brass no longer needs to be re-sized after firing because the bullets are a firm thumb push fit into the un-sized brass. It doesn't appear that I will need to put a "traditional" crimp on the finished cartridge to hold the bullet in place under recoil. I finally got the seating die adjusted so that it JUST irons out the tiny case mouth flare that is required, plus just a bit more for adequate neck tension. Case life should be outstanding as a result.

I love it when a plan comes together! I can visualize the groups shrinking already. The rifle currently shoots about as well as I do, and this is going to make the rifle more accurate than I am, I predict. Thanks again for the help guys! Excitement runs rampant at the ranch this week... I am trying to get out tomorrow to shoot some of these new loads to see how they work. I'll let you know...

(Oh, and I feel so green now. Recycled lead, recycled paper, recycled brass. I wonder if I can get some sort of recycling award from the environmental community for all of my efforts? )

[windrider919]

Looking forward to your test results. You are set up almost exactly like I am. The only thing you did not mention is using a water soluble wax to glue the patch together a little tighter/ make it a little stronger to take knocks and dings and chambering/ add a little waterproofing to the cartridge. ( With it I can keep a couple of extra cartridges in my pocket when hunting, if I sweat it keeps the patch from getting soggy. )

See what groups you get as you are, then make a batch of bullets with your patch wetting solution made with 1/4 water soluble floor wax + 3/4 water.

I tried it in concentrations from full strength to 5% and found 25% worked [for me], got just a hair tighter groups that without and then bought the Rooster Lube. It seems to work a little better than floor wax plus I started using it as a tumble lube for 45ACP cast boolets.
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Something new to the discussion here. Have you checked your stock to action fit yet? I am shooting a custom fiberglass stock now, but when I still had a wood stock I found some tricks that helped. First of all, using a trippled slip of paper, I checked barrel clearance for no touching. Then, installing my sling, I got in the prone position, put the proper tension on the forend and had a friend check for barrel contact again. and there was hard contact. Now lots of people shoot off sandbags and now days bi-pods but you don't usually carry those while hunting. Most people DO however have a sling to hold the rifle when walking around and yet do not practice with it.

Anyway, first I pillar blocked the rear action screw by measuring the distance between the stock and action guard. I cut and machine squared the ends of a piece of aluminum 5/8 round stock to that exactly fit the distance. And chucked it up in the lathe and drilled a hole .050 larger that the stock screw through it. I then drilled the hole in the stock to a sloppy 5/8". Put a double wrap of elec tape on the screw to shank to 'center' it in the Al block. I also used a pinch of modeling clay in each end to keep the epoxy out. Checked and did a little relief stock removal just as in a regular glass bedding job.

I also routed out a channel in the forend under the barrel and installed a length of 5/16" drill rod that went from the front of the recoil lug to almost the end of the forend. I also opened up the barrel channel about .050. I then used epoxy to fill the rod channel and barrel channel, lay in a piece of {wetted} fiberglass cloth, drop in the 5/16 drill rod and cover with another piece of {wetted} glass cloth. I had previously covered the barrel with electricians tape and PVA release agent. I put epoxy where needed in the action section and then used it inside the 5/8" hole. Then I installed the barreled action in the stock, letting the excess cloth hang out the sides of the forend (protected the stock exterior with PVA too). Flipped it upside down and installed the Al block and then the trigger guard (screw and guard prepped with PVA beforehand) . And tightened firmly but not over tightly the front and rear stock screws.

After the epoxy cured, I pulled the barreled action, cut off the excess glass cloth and epoxy, cleaned up the stock and re-installed everything. The rear stock screw does not touch on its sides and the rear action tang and trigger guard are connected through the Al block, giving an unchanging fit. The barrel is free floated yet does not warp into contact with 'reasonable' sling tension. And the rifle is a tad more accurate. In fact, I hunted with that rifle in the rain and since the stock was fully sealed with epoxy everywhere you could NOT see and finished on all external surfaces - it did not swell from moisture and change point of impact.

[offshore44]

Looking forward to your test results. You are set up almost exactly like I am. The only thing you did not mention is using a water soluble wax to glue the patch together a little tighter/ make it a little stronger to take knocks and dings and chambering/ add a little waterproofing to the cartridge. ( With it I can keep a couple of extra cartridges in my pocket when hunting, if I sweat it keeps the patch from getting soggy. )

See what groups you get as you are, then make a batch of bullets with your patch wetting solution made with 1/4 water soluble floor wax + 3/4 water.

I tried it in concentrations from full strength to 5% and found 25% worked [for me], got just a hair tighter groups that without and then bought the Rooster Lube. It seems to work a little better than floor wax plus I started using it as a tumble lube for 45ACP cast boolets.

Ya, I'm ghosting in on your coat-tails windrider919... I try to learn from others success instead of reinventing the wheel. Once I get the knowledge gleaned from other experience worked out, THEN I can go off the reservation and try out new ideas, if required. No use reinventing the wheel every time out.

I abandoned putting any goop of any kind on for the time being. The weather here has improved enough that wet paper patches are no longer a major issue, so I eliminated that variable from the process. I haven't found any floor wax locally yet, but then I haven't looked very hard either. Can you store that floor wax mixture for any length of time?

I have a very low budget operation, so I have to keep my expenses down to the absolute minimum possible. So far, so good though. Shooting paper patched with good to great success doesn't seem to require a lot of money. More creativity than money. Heck, I don't even buy lead for casting any more. I trade the brass that other folks leave laying around for scrap lead and wheel weights. The cost of suitable paper is trivial now that I have discovered a local source for appropriate paper. My only current expense is primers, and powder once I run out of my current stock.

Right now, I have very usable accuracy for hunting anything in North America if I need to do that. Once the last of the details are worked out, then it is off to see just how small and portable I can make the entire reloading setup while maintaining that accuracy. It's too bad that Lee Precision doesn't make a Lee loader for the 458WM.

My goal is to keep the accuracy at 1 1/2" or less (1" or less would be much better) at 100 yards, and have everything needed to load 100 or so of those rounds, including the casting gear, lead and powder fit into a shoe box sized container. Maybe a 30 cal ammo can at most. Something that I can throw in the back of the Suburban when I head out into the back woods and have a way to reload for the rifle if I need to. It actually looks do-able at this point. But I digress.

[offshore44]

I hear what you are saying windrider919. I am a HUGE fan of shooting with a sling, and have been for a very long time. I only practice three positions though, Standing, Sitting and Prone. Kneeling has never been useful for me. When I purchased the rifle I put a 1 1/4" leather shooting sling on it with the appropriate hardware. I shoot slung up and the rifle resting on the palm of my hand without a forearm death grip on the left hand with all three positions when I am not shooting off the bench. Accuracy from prone and sitting is almost the same as shooting off the bench most of the time, and is the same some days. I am a 1" group shooter almost no matter what I do these days. Well, at least when I am having a good day out in the woods. (Some days the broad side of a barn from the inside is a stretch.) The groups don't ever seem to get smaller than that. Must be my eyesight or something. The only exception is when I shoot the Win M52C off the bench. That's a one hole gun on just about any day and in any conditions out to about 100 - 150 yards. That's not a hunting rig, nor is any of the gear that allows me to do that kind of shooting hunting gear.

I haven't put any time into the bedding or mounting or anything yet. I wanted to get the loads worked out and stabilized first, then move onto the more esoteric accuracy modifications. No use putting time and money into something that won't shoot anyhow. The case now seems to be that it will be worth the effort to go through the accurizing process though. I would like to have the action worked over, a left handed, three position side swing safety put on and the barrel re-crowned at some point. Plus free floating and bedding.

We'll see what we shall see though. Money is tight.

[pdawg_shooter]

Thanks for the suggestion. I gave that a quick look-see pdawg. I'm a little hesitant on it though. The CZ doesn't like to feed anything with a big meplat like that. I learned that lesson with some Oregon Trail cast bullets that I tried out. The trip from the magazine mashes the meplat every time...

Give me an address and I will send you a few to try. pdawg.shooter@gmail.com

[offshore44]

Give me an address and I will send you a few to try. pdawg.shooter@gmail.com

Very kind offer pdawg_shooter, thank you. Address is inbound.

[windrider919]

Actually Offfshore44, I had also wondered where you were for the same reason.

I had considered sending you 50 of my 460gr bullets. Passed on even mentioning it because of your privacy, since you did not list it.

As per the wax, the local grocery store has a floor care section I would think. {Again, depending on where you live - maybe not on Easter Island or on the Falkland Isl.

Most of the squirt on the floor and mop down floor waxes are water soluble for clean-up. When they dry.....THEN they become either very water resistant or water proof. Anyway, a standard kitchen sized bottle will last for thousands of bullets.

ALSO, Do all the bedding yourself, its easy, just takes a Dremel tool or even just sandpaper and ellbow grease. The epoxy costs but little action bedding kits are sold for less that $20.00 and have enough to do the whole job I described. And I have even used JB Weld epoxy on a cracked .375 H&H stock, repaired and bedded it and it still shoots great. Then coated the stock with spray can, rubberized/ textured truck bed liner for a 'black rifle' futuristic non-slip weatherproof coating!!!!

Took it to the range shooting and a couple of guys got into an argument on who was going to be the first offer to buy it. Did not sell it till I had shot it 200 rounds, full power to check repair. Then sold it for $300.00 more than I had invested in it!. {With a guarantee in writing that if the repair EVER failed I would refund all the money.}

[303Guy]

Most of the squirt on the floor and mop down are water soluble ...

Aahh! Thanks for that windrider919. I had wondered about it (but got lost!)

How does one confirm that it's the water soluble wax variety? (Water miscible actually).

[windrider919]

Aahhhhh.....

Read the label?


Actually, that is what I did, read on how to clean the floor mop after application- made sure it was with water. And then, well, I experimented with using it on paper strips, in different dilutions, letting them dry and seeing how tough and water resistant they became. And finally, started wrapping boolets.

This is where I also started wrapping .451 jacketed pistol bullets because the plain PP method had not worked well. But the Floor Wax patches on jacketed boolets DID quite nicely. Except that when you fire a 200 gr Hornady XTP HP at 2900 FPS it really DOES have "Extreme Terminal Performance" - at 100yds it blows up a plastic 5 gal bucket full of water like a hand grenade.

I did develop a .452, 200gr lead SWC PP load with filler and a velocity of 800 FPS. I use it for squirrel and rabbit hunting instead of a .22lr now. Use 7.0gr of Hodgden Universal powder.

.458Win Mag - it really CAN be an all around rifle!

[pdawg_shooter]

Give me an address and I will send you a few to try. pdawg.shooter@gmail.com

I shipped you 10 patched and 10 bare for you to play with. They are on the little brown truck so you should see them in 3 or 4 days. Enjoy.

[offshore44]

I shipped you 10 patched and 10 bare for you to play with. They are on the little brown truck so you should see them in 3 or 4 days. Enjoy.

Thank you pdawg_shooter! I do appreciate that. The Big Brown Truck guys are pretty curious about all of the activity at the ranch over the last year or so. They had quit the run here awhile ago with heavy boxes labeled ORM-D and my new wall tent. Lot's of head scratching and grunting involved. It seems that they were dieing to ask, but didn't. I just smiled and said "Thank you". I'm sure they have me on somebody's list by now...

I would appreciate some samples to play with windrider919. Thanks for the offer.

Is there anything that I could send your way as a thank you, folks? I would like to reciprocate the kindness you are showing me. Unfortunately, donuts and home-made bread don't travel well; perhaps samples of my casting efforts? I have 44, 8mm and of course, three different 458's.

[offshore44]

I don't live on Easter Island or in the Falklands...just feels like it some days. Not that it is a bad thing, you see. Maybe Pitcairn Island?

I'll put the floor wax on the list for the next road trip into town. I'll check out in the store room as well, heck, I may have some already that I have forgotten about. (I never wax my floors)

Yup, the 458WM is about the most "all around" rifle that I know of. But only if you load and cast. Otherwise it's not particularly useful. I suppose that you could do the same with the 45-70 family if you were into single shots or lever guns though.

Which brings up another thought...I wonder if it would be possible to paper patch a 230 grn cast bullet for the 45ACP to make a plinker round for the 458? Hmmm...on the list it goes...

It looks like I am going shooting with the new loads tomorrow, instead of today. got business to attend to today.

[pdawg_shooter]

Thank you pdawg_shooter! I do appreciate that. The Big Brown Truck guys are pretty curious about all of the activity at the ranch over the last year or so. They had quit the run here awhile ago with heavy boxes labeled ORM-D and my new wall tent. Lot's of head scratching and grunting involved. It seems that they were dieing to ask, but didn't. I just smiled and said "Thank you". I'm sure they have me on somebody's list by now...

I would appreciate some samples to play with windrider919. Thanks for the offer.

Is there anything that I could send your way as a thank you, folks? I would like to reciprocate the kindness you are showing me. Unfortunately, donuts and home-made bread don't travel well; perhaps samples of my casting efforts? I have 44, 8mm and of course, three different 458's.

Well, if you ever run across someone with a 301618 or 301620 I would sure like to know. Been looking for one for years!

[offshore44]

Well, if you ever run across someone with a 301618 or 301620 I would sure like to know. Been looking for one for years!

I'll keep my eyes open! There's actually some pretty good gun shows around here. Some of the strangest stuff shows up from time to time.

I did get out and do some shooting today. I'll post about that little adventure when I get some time tomorrow night or Monday.

Happy Easter everyone.